PM001 Sports

Sports, Sports Betting, Church Membership, & Baptism.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the Practical Matters podcast where theology is made practical and that matters. It's uh Kevin Saxton here with Garrett Haywood. And we are uh we're ready to talk about some practical theological issues, and that is what this podcast is all about. So um we uh we we both have brought some issues to the table today. We did not tell each other what we brought to the table. We're simply going to ask each other about some practical issues for everyday life for the Christian, and that's that's something we think is important. Uh all all theology should be practical. So, not saying that people who study theology at the uh biblical level are not making it practical. I think that's exactly the goal, but um, but this we want to talk about how practical uh how theology is practically lived out every single day in our lives. Anything to add to that, Garrett?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

No, that's exactly right. I'm ready to jump in.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

All right, all right. So you want to go first? Want me to go first?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Fireway, you go first.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

All right, so I uh I I know that um I know that you're a sports guy. And so we're we're right in the middle of the World Cup, right? I think the uh the round of 32 kicks off pretty soon. And uh I'm not I'm not a soccer guy, but I do know that it's happening. Um but I know that you're a big sports guy. I know that you know a lot of uh a lot about sports. I mean, I just saw your phone case, you're an Orlando Magic fan. Um so um the the question I have is what at what level should a Christian engage in athletics or like as a as a fan, like as entertainment, like at what level should a Christian engage in sport fandom?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

That's a good question. I think in terms of um making theology practical, you know, Paul says that uh physical training is of some value, um, but uh spiritual disciplines are of the greatest value. But I think the Bible does not say that um you know spiritual training or excuse me, physical training is of no value. And so I think there is a level at which you can engage with sports um personally, uh, but also uh at an entertainment level. Um I think there's a there's a way that you can engage with sports in an appropriate uh in an appropriate way. Uh I do enjoy sports uh quite a bit. Um I actually find it makes me more productive because the two hours or two and a half hours that I spend watching a basketball game, uh my mind unplugs from all the things that I've been focusing on, and then I'm able to re-engage with a a fresh mind. And so I actually find that my level of engagement helps make me more productive, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

So I don't yeah, I mean it's I would say that makes sense. I mean, because I think the thing that we have to think about is like, are we making the best use of the time? And that's what that's what uh scripture tells us to do, making the best use of the time because the days are evil. So um, you know, you and I both have friends who know the statistics backwards and forwards, right? Like I mean um and Christian friends, you know, that they they uh maybe they just have a mind for it. I I don't know. They just, you know, maybe they're geniuses. I really don't know. I mean, I I enjoy sports as well. Obviously, I mean I I enjoy my favorite sports watch is horse racing, but I uh I find that it's really hard to keep track of the names of all those horses. Like I just and I'm then I'm like, oh, I want to learn these horse. And then I'm like, do I really is that really something that I should engage in? So you know that's that's kind of part of the question too. Like, what how how deeply should we engage in sport fandom?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, I think there's part of it too. Like this past Sunday in our message, uh looking at Psalm 37, verse 31, we talked about hiding God's word in our hearts. And one example I gave was how um you people, uh, you in general, you are able to memorize your home address, you're able to memorize your phone number, you're able to memorize your birthday, you're able to memorize all kinds of sports statistics like we just mentioned, you're capable of memorizing scripture. It's just a matter of discipline, it's not a matter of ability in most cases. And so for the person who knows all the sports stats but knows know scripture, that's problematic to me. Um but if you're if you're able to quote scripture at a um a deeper level, at a more rapid pace than you're able to quote sports statistics, then that's probably that's probably an appropriate level, I would think. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

No, I think that's I think that's fair. Like, you know, a lot I don't I think a lot of Christians don't memorize scripture. I think that's one of the things we should be doing, and I find the older I get, the harder it is actually to memorize scripture, you know. Um because your brain is just so much better primed for it when you're young. And obviously, I think if we keep that muscle up, like, and maybe that's maybe that's what I've done, maybe I'll let the muscle flax. Uh uh, I don't know. But um, but I I do think that that's a that's that could be a helpful barometer. Like, is is this something that is occupying so much space in my mind that I don't have time or I don't have space or capacity to think about the things of God, or is this something that is legitimately a leisure time activity? And also I think um there's probably a lot of opportunity that comes along with sport as well, right? I mean, you can invite your neighbors to a hockey game. Um, you can invite your, you can spend time with your neighbors watching a game. I mean, there's there's there's ways that um sometimes it helps to be able to speak the language too. I've seen people be able to engage in conversation with total strangers based on the recent trade of a basketball team or whatever it may be. Um so I think that, yeah, I think that that can also be a valuable um aspect of it, as long as it's not something that is occupying so much space in our mind that we don't have time for the things of God uh or space, or not say time, but like you know, space.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah. I think that's a fair point. I think that can easily become an excuse, like, well, I'm a huge sports fan because of the evangelistic nature of it, but uh you're you're exactly right that you know you could uh oftentimes get someone to go to a basketball game that may not come to church yet, or engage in a conversation about sports uh with someone that may one day turn into a spiritual conversation. So I I like that angle uh a lot. So uh what do you think about um uh what do you think about sports betting as a Christian?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

See, that was my that was actually my second uh that was gonna be my second question for you is actually sports betting. And it like, you know, I s I said uh I said I like to watch horse racing, right? Most people who watch horse racing are watching it to bet.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Um I love horses. So I'm watching horse racing because I love horses. So it's not, you know, I'm not I'm not betting on horses. Um but it's like every now and then I'll like try and like figure out like if I were to bet on this horse, like, you know, try and remember like I'm betting on the six, like, would I have won any money? And then that horse like finishes last, and you're like, yeah, that would have been dumb. Like, oh god, I'm glad I didn't do it. But but the problem with um the problem with sports betting is that it is on the rise. It's legal in just about every state, it seems like I think it is, it's actually illegal in every state. Um, and there's a it's a huge problem. I have students, um, you know, I teach high school students that um that engage in sports betting. So it it is definitely something that's on the rise. Um I I think it's highly problematic. I I think it's one of those things that um you think about it, and and there's a lot of things, you know, you know, Paul says that uh um that it uh uh everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful or beneficial, essentially. And I so I think you know there's a lot of things as a Christian. You know, I I don't drink alcohol. I don't drink alcohol because um not because I uh you know think that it's inherently evil in itself, but because of all the problems that it can cause and because it could be a stumbling block. I'm I'm a leader in the in the church as a as a Christian school teacher, as a as a volunteer in student ministry, like I'm a I'm a leader, so um I've got to uh I can't put something out there that's going to make other people stumble, so I choose not to do it. Um I I would want to put um I would want to put sports betting in the same kind of way. You know, like you never really see an opportunity to bet on sports that isn't coupled with if you have a gambling problem, you should call this number. Yes, yeah, that's right. So obviously they're recognizing the fact that sports betting is addictive. And you know that too by you know, like there's uh I was just hearing someone talk just recently about um an NFL prospect who's not ever gonna be able to play in the NFL because he bet on his own team. He's basically the NCAA, the NCAA um is shunning him, the uh his team, his former team, his new team, his the NFL doesn't want him. Um and that that the obviously that is uh he wouldn't have done that, most likely. I mean, I don't know the young man, but he wouldn't have done that if it wasn't something that is highly addictive. Um it's something where you get on a ride that high. I I think that for most things like that, the best the best thing for a Christian, you know, what Paul says in Romans 10, we a lot of times we say um um we we quote the uh the the passage about that God's going to provide a way out of temptation, but if you back up a couple verses, it says that um it says that uh if you think you're standing strong, be careful not to fall in uh 1 Corinthians 10. So in other words, like don't, you know, that there's a proverb, um, like an ancient proverb, somebody said, I forget where it even came from, but I remember it distinctly all the time. I think about it, like if you don't want to fall, you shouldn't walk in slippery places. And that seems to me to have a direct correlation with that passage in 1 Corinthians 10. And I think that that is exactly what sports betting is. I think it's a slippery place. Like, is it permissible? Maybe, but um, but is it helpful? Absolutely not. I just don't know what the value would be. You're not you're not gonna get rich. You know, people always say, like, um, I hear I hear students say it, they'll say uh that uh most most gamblers quit right before they win big, um, which you know it's foolish, you know, it's basically a it's a tongue-in-cheek kind of thing, you know. But um, but that and I think that I think that is, I think it's highly problematic that you that because that's the way you think, like, oh, if I just do it one more time, I'm going to win. Oh, if I just do it one more time, I'm going to win. And then when you do win, it's like, oh, I won, I should keep going. And and I think that that is, I think it can derail a Christian. And I think I think it also to talk about space in your mind, I think that the sports betting thing can really take um, you know, you're gonna have to know the stats, you're gonna have to know the players, you're gonna have to know you know something about them to be able to bet. Uh, and I think that you could really use a lot of mind power that you could use somewhere else doing that.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

So it's because of its rise in popularity, I have been asked about it a few times, and several Christians are um like even an article on on gotquestions.com, uh, you're probably familiar with that site. Um several Christians are making the case that um uh there's an appropriate level of sports betting that can be classified as entertainment. Like instead of spending $20 on a movie, you spend $20 betting on the game tonight. And and and that's all you do. Uh and and again, you know, if you don't want to fall, then don't walk in slippery places. But um there's a lot of Christians that are putting um a small amount of sports betting into the category of Christian entertainment. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Well, I think that's what I mean, I think that's what we do with a lot of things, right? I mean, um and I've heard that for you know gambling in general. Like if I if I go to the casino and I just take $100 and I plan on that's it, that's my that's my entertainment budget for tonight. I don't plan on taking any more money out of an ATM and that's it. I'm just gonna this hundred dollars is all going there with. Um I I just don't know that it's the best stewardship. Because like for a casino, like you can anything you could do at a casino, you can play that game online, like with fake money.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

So I mean the entertainment value, and I and I and I'm sure that you know you know, they do all sorts of things at casinos to make it an enjoyable experience, right? That I've heard that they, you know, there's extra oxygen in the air or what you know, whatever. Who knows? Um, so the you know, there's the there's the excitement of you're interacting with a professional dealer and you're you know you're you're with all these other gamblers and you know you gotta read faces and all that. So I I get that, you know, I get that, but um, that there might be some other aspects to it. But I but most of what you could do for the entertainment thing part of it, you could really just do by I mean play a board game with your friends. I mean, there's there's still ways to uh um I think to engage in the entertainment without the the gambling aspect of it. Because I think even when you show up at the casino with a hundred dollars, or you say, I'm only gonna bet 20 bucks on these these games that are happening today, um, I mean, maybe you are. Maybe you aren't. And you know, if I go to the movies, it's not like uh it's it, you know, I spend $20 on a movie, which I mean you're gambling when you go see a movie too, because God only knows what Hollywood puts in it nowadays. But um, but um, but if I if I spend $20 on a movie, like I I'm probably not gonna just all of a sudden like binge watch another movie. Right. I mean, I it could, like, it could be that's that's kind of fun sometimes, you know. Me and my wife have done that before. We see a movie, it's like, hey, let's go see another movie. Yeah. Um, before we had kids. No, we have kids, so it's like we better get home before they burn the house down or whatever. But um, but I mean you're you're probably not gonna do that. You're probably spending the amount of money it takes to pay for the movie in popcorn, which you know, you're gonna be out 75 bucks just for two people anyway.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

But so should like can Christians I don't know, just like some rapid-fire questions like can Christians attend sporting events live in person and pay money to go?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

I I I mean, I would think that that would be that's not that I don't think that's the same thing as betting on it. I think that's right. I'm changing but kind of back to the original question. Yeah, yeah. I mean it that would be I think that it's I think it is a valid thing to do to seek entertainment. I mean, God God gave us that. Like, I don't think God set us in the world as like, don't enjoy anything. Like, I think it was actually meant to be completely enjoyed. So I think that the joys that we have now are common graces um from God. Because with sin in the world, the world should be terrible all the time, and every aspect of it should be terrible. So it's God's grace that there's anything good if watching people compete athletically is a good thing. I mean, I think you know, recognizing humans that are maybe God's image that have attained to a certain level of athletic ability, I think that that that is recognizing the goodness of God. So I think going and paying for a ball game ticket, yeah, sure. Going to the Super Bowl, probably not.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

So sports are not inherently evil.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I don't think sports are inherently evil. I and I think that well, you referenced about the rep about Paul, like talking about um probably exercises of some value. He also talks about don't all the in the race, don't all the winners run, or all the runners run, but only one receives the prize. I mean he's appealing to the um the fact that the that the audience for his letter would be familiar with racing, right? Um so I I think that I don't think Paul is saying like I don't think there's anything in scripture that would indicate like that engaging in entertainment is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So will there be basketball in the New Heavens and the New Earth?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Man, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

I don't know the answer.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

I'm just thinking a lot of the I think you know I've heard someone talk about New Heavens and New Earth, like the the good things from here will be the will be the things that are there.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Um I and I I I would because I don't think of losing as that as necessarily bad. Like as a finite human being, losing is a character building opportunity. Um it's an opportunity to go back and try again and you know try a different strategy or whatever it may be. And so I think that if we say, well, there will not be any sports in heaven because no one's going to lose, I don't know. But also, like, will we need sports in heaven? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I mean like I think we'll have I think we'll have jobs in heaven. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, I mean God created us to work that's clear from the Garden of Eden.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

So I wonder if we'll have sports in heaven. I've never thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

I've never really thought about it either.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Should a Christian miss church to go to a sporting event?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I think that Christians should miss church very, very little. I think that that is one of the things that we should prioritize in our lives. That's clear, very clear for the New Testament. I mean, even without just a straight um passage of in in Hebrews 10 of do not forsake the meeting together, as some of you are in the habit of doing, like I think we should miss church for very, very little. Um but at the same time, I think that you know, God's obviously given us freedom and God has given us the ability to choose. I think there may be some times where um where if I look and evaluate for my family that maybe this this particular thing might be the best thing for my family, um I I don't think God's like, well, that's it. You know, they they made 51 Sundays and not 52. Like I don't I don't think that's the case. Maybe we my family and I just missed church two weeks in a row, two weekends in a row, I believe it was, um, because we were on a family vacation. And I I don't think that God was like, you know, cursing us on those two Sundays that we were gone or those Wednesdays that we missed. Probably because that was what was best for our family at that time.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

So uh sometimes, but not uh it's not preferable.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, I think that we should yeah, I definitely think that we should be prioritizing church, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Um what about uh Christians and travel sports, particularly travel sports that um interfere with Sunday worship?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, that that's a sticky subject. And I think there's a lot of people that are speaking out against travel sports right now. Um a lot of the people, even secular folks, are saying that you know these travel sports are uh basically unhealthy and unhelpful in the way that they um that they take time and money and you know would guarantee nothing in the future. You know, I think I think we all think that our kid's gonna go pro. And so the travel sports is kind of a a way for us to help them get to that level. Um, and I know a lot of great Christian men and women who their children are involved in travel sports. Um I think I think you gotta think very, very carefully about that. I think you need to be, I mean, because anything that's gonna draw me away from church for six out of eight weeks, you know, in a row or whatever, I think I think it's something that I really need to be careful with. And I think that there most likely are other ways to accomplish whatever the goal is that we have. Um, if our goal is I want my child to be prepared for the next level, I think there's probably other ways to do that as a Christian. And I think that the more people who stop playing travel sports, like I think sometimes we think, oh, well, everybody's gonna play it, so we have to play it if they want to have an opportunity. I just don't think that's the case. And I and also, like, you ever thought about in sports how many Christians there are at the highest level? Like very few. I I think about that. I don't think so. Really? I think there's way more than than it seems.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Depends on the sport. I mean I've had this conversation with somebody. I think it differs by sport. It's very anecdotal. It is a very anecdotal. Only God knows the heart, but I think it depends on the sport.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

It's I just feel like that like a lot of sports. Like y'all, I'll watch what you know, the I I still consider the two main sports in our country to be uh to be football and baseball. I know that that's kind of I'm a basketball fan, but I agree with you actually. Yep. Um but so I'm thinking football and baseball, it's a remarkable number of athletes at that level that are Christians.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Um but in basketball, I think it's very few.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah, and you know that's the interesting thing about basketball, though, is basketball is does not seem like it's one of the sports that like my students are not gone playing travel sports on Sunday that it's basketball. And this is a basketball state. So I don't know, but but the but the number of the number of athletes that are gonna make it to the NBA is the is I mean incredibly small. Correct. So that's gotta be the smallest, I mean, besides like pro golf or something. I think you know it's that's gotta be one of the smallest populations of professional athletes.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Because of the rosters and the number of teams and everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Right. And you and you basically, if you're not seven foot, you know, if you're not six and a half feet tall, like there's gonna be like what one one person under six foot tall that gets drafted a year or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

I mean, yeah, Jalen Brunson just led a team to an NBA championship. Arguably the shortest team, or the sh not arguably, he is the shortest player, I think, to ever win um finals MVP this this past year.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

How tall is he?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Six foot one.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Okay, so he's this yeah, so he's not short. He's not a he's not a giant, but he's not short.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Everybody counted him out though. Um but yeah, he's he's uh he's the shortest for sure. Um okay, tr travel sports.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Um well the Christi the Christian thing is the highest level. I think that God's not gonna shut out Christians from the highest level. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Like there's that because it gives a it gives so many people such a great platform. Um and I'm not saying like oh I'm a Christian so obviously God's gonna make me go pro. Correct. But I do think there's a lot of Christians who have used that level of athleticism to but I also think I also think there's something too like as a Christian like the self-discipline that ought to be inherent like is something that is beneficial for sports as well. So you know there's some of that aspect as well who's willing to work hard. I mean Christians should be working harder than anybody else in just about every single avenue of society. For sure. So I don't know I don't know how I but but I think that those people reaching that level and still being committed to Christ like I I would say that a lot of them probably you know the generation that's in professional sports now we're probably not playing travel sports like the current generation. Yeah I agree. Because that's such a it's it's a kind of a new phenomenon. So I think that that's what I'm saying. I think it's possible to get there without sacrificing one of the most I I really do think the most important institution on the on this planet is the family. And after the family it is the church.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yes yep agreed agreed um I have you have more questions on sports?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

No sports that's those are my I already asked well you asked me one of your the one I had for you but it kind of led into it. You tell me what you were thinking.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Well it's because it connects to uh this idea of church and so this is this is um why I bring it up now so um church membership um as a as a lay person so not as a pastor uh you know thinking about why membership should be an important part of a church structure but as a as a person in the pew why should I become a member of a church? Not why should I become a member of this church in particular but generally speaking why should I become a member of a church? Why can't I just attend a church? I've had that question asked to me um a couple times recently and uh I'll just give you a little background like as a pastor like one day I have to give an account um to the Lord for those uh to whom he entrusted to me um for the for those he entrusted to me uh well he hasn't entrusted to me everyone who walks through our doors or everyone who comes within fifty feet of our property like who has he entrusted to me um it would be our members the those who make a reciprocal commitment um so to me church membership is vital because those are the people that I'm going to give an account to the Lord for but from the person considering membership why should I become a member of a church at all is a fair question. It was asked of me by um somebody who's been a Christian for a long time but has been a part of several churches that don't have church membership at all. And this is the first church that they've uh started engaging with that values church membership. And so anyways that's enough uh prerequisite there. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah I mean I I do think um I mean I I I I do think that church membership is important and you know I I was in pastoral ministry obviously that's how we know each other um even though I teach Bible now I still consider myself to be a churchman like I I love the church and I want um the church to succeed I want the best for the church um and this is one of those things like I I remember when I was in seminary like I would take classes where people would use like the professors would use like the arguments in from the book of Acts which I think making arguments from the book of Acts is hard because the book of Acts is descriptive not prescriptive so it's um it is kind of hard to make a lot of arguments from that but they will say you know how there's the numbers that are recorded in Acts and some they'll say like you know one passage like 2,000 were added to that number that day 5,000 were added to that number that day the church continued to grow. So it's like well that's true they say that's church membership um they obviously knew how many there were and so they knew who they were so they were members of the church. And it's like well I mean I just don't know that that's the strongest argument for church membership it seems very you know it seems like one of those things that wouldn't hold up in a court of law you know like is that really what is happening there? And I see the point. Like I I'm not saying I don't see the point of that um but I I agree with you that as a pastor you need to know who your sheep are and you know a sheep doesn't just go wandering around from flock to flock and say well I'm gonna I'm gonna travel and feed with this flock for now and that'll be my shepherd for now but in a little while I'm gonna I'm gonna go somewhere else and I'm gonna get a different shepherd to be you know and and that's obviously all anecdotal but um but I think when you look at things like church discipline and you look at things like um well even from the book of acts how the deacons were um were selected because of the roster of the widows you know and like um indicating that they knew who the widows were that I think that's actually a stronger argument yeah um if you're gonna make an argument from the book of Acts but um but like there it's very obvious from the selection criteria for church leadership that you have to know who's in the church. And so I do think that that church membership is a legitimate thing. I don't think it's an illegitimate thing that Christians have done. And I think the problem that we have is that you know people don't join country clubs as much anymore. You know people don't go and join um the YMCA here in Leesburg, Florida because there's not a YMCA here in Leesburg, Florida that I'm aware of you know like so people aren't really joining things and becoming a member. That I think that probably was a big part of our culture back in like the 50s interesting when the church was booming essentially I mean we we say it was booming a lot of people look back at the 50s and say that was a great time period um because everybody was going to church and I you know I I I sympathize with that to an extent except that out of the 50s came the 60s which means that we didn't really do a good job because the 60s is probably like one of the worst decades of all time because of what happened during that time. But um well unless you consider 80s music in which case the 80s is the worst but that that's a whole different thing. But anyway but uh I think I think that like we a lot of times look at church membership now in our cultural saying well that's just something that's a that's something hanging out from the past. Like that's not you know that was a part of cultural Christianity like you had to be a member I'm a proud thing like I'm a member of the first Baptist church or I'm a member of the first Methodist church or you know whatever it may be. And I think so people might equate it that way even though that's clearly not what it is. And so I think that some people are just kind of like ruling it out without really digging into what church membership actually means. And I think that the some of the arguments for things like church discipline are some of the strongest arguments for church membership because why would you discipline someone who is just an attender you know someone's just showing up to church and you find out that they have some sort of well they've never actually done anything to like engage in the life of the church like membership is hey you I'm gonna be a part of this church. And I and I do think that Christians all are called to be a part of a church. I don't think that you know like it's it's the the anecdotal thing a lot of people say like you wouldn't um you know love a man but hate his wife you know like um you know so you don't love Christ and hate his church his bride um I but I do think we're all called to be a member of a church a gospel preaching Bible believing church yes um and so I think that if we're gonna do that we have to recognize the importance of accountability no one's gonna keep me accountable no one's gonna necessarily know who I am if I'm not on the books for being a part of that church. Yeah and so if I am looking for the accountability that I should be looking for as a believer in Jesus then it's gonna be incumbent upon me to be a member of a church. And that and that's that's tricky too because people don't really want accountability.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Well yes that is true and like in um uh in 1 Corinthians 14 I think it is where you know Paul says and if there are guests among you well a a a guest by definition only has its existence as a derivative of you have to have members in order to have guests but if there's no membership then everyone's a guest then everyone be a guest you know what I'm saying it's like um that makes sense to me I just in answering the question from somebody I kind of explained from my perspective like I want to know the people I'm accountable for but if you read between the lines it's basically saying hey if you don't come to our membership class and sign on the dotted line then uh I'm not accountable for you. You know it was kind of a it wasn't a satisfactory answer. And so um it was a correct answer but not a satisfactory answer. And so um I'm still trying to think through like what what are the benefits to you which maybe that's just a very American way of thinking through the question but what are the benefits to you of um stating this church is is the church of which I'm a member so um still thinking through that and I guess it helps a lot like when there are things at the church functions of the church that are only accessible to members then you want to become a member to access all those things. It's kind of like um someone I was talking to was like yeah you can go to Costco you can eat in the food court you can walk around eat samples but you can't buy anything unless you're a member and so in a similar way you can come to church and enjoy worship but you can't you can't fully engage unless you're a member.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Right. So I don't know yeah I mean that's that's interesting. I I think you know we all know we all know those of us who have a family you know the benefits of family right you are a member of your family and Peter says that we're supposed to consider older men to be um fathers younger older women to be mothers older younger men to be brothers younger women to be sisters um using the family analogy of the church it is the the family analogy is one of my favorite aspects of the church that we are meant not just to be um acquaintances to one another but that we're meant to be family uh well I know who I is in my family like I know who all of them are and if I was going to uh add someone else to my family it would either be through um reproduction you know with like obviously having another kid or it would be through adoption which is a legal process by where by which that child would then become my child um and then they would become a member of my family and um I think that language is helpful with with the church in general but I think it could also be helpful to someone when you're saying hey we we want you to be part of the family.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

You know you yeah you come to the you might come to the family dinner you might come to this that this or that or whatever but like if we're gonna have like a family meeting I mean I I've we've got some um some friends some neighbors that uh we we consider to be like part of our family um but sometimes we'll say hey uh hey guys we need you to to head home they're you know kids so it would be like we we kind of need you to head home because uh we got some things we got to talk about as a family and we wouldn't keep them in that conversation because they're not a member of the family and we're not trying to embarrass the family and we're not trying to embarrass them. Right um and I I think we all recognize the the benefit of being in a family belonging to a family we all desire belonging and when you're a part of the family you belong.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

That was helpful um I'm still thinking through that one a little bit um you have other topics or did I steal yours already no I my two were uh sports and sports betting I guess I guess both of mine are church related so um I'll have to get a little more practical next time um private baptisms is that an oxymoron can you can you um uh where is baptism uh when when is someone baptized and you know when did they just get wet and when did they get baptized uh if that makes sense it's like where is baptism uh to be taken place where where is it legitimate where is it not to take place uh when does it count several versions of that question yeah um that's that is a that's an interesting one um a lot of people will go to the book of acts for that too right right right yeah and they'll be like uh they'll be like oh the Ethiopian eunuch he said look here's water correct that prevents me from being baptized or they'll go to uh Cornelius's family where the whole family was baptized there but remember Peter wasn't by himself by the way like um it wasn't just like one guy came in there like Peter took other people with him um it says that in scripture but um so it is kind of in a way you know that's a that's a different thing it's also if it depends on if it's open to the public or not you know but yes but a lot of times it a lot of times especially through 50s Christianity like we we prioritize the believers or we prioritize the profession of faith right like walk down an aisle walk to the front tell somebody that you became a Christian that's what matters because that's the public profession of faith which I think I mean I do think that we need to make our faith public but I don't think that's exactly what I don't think the walking down the aisle the at you know the is is the public profession the public profession is the baptism baptism is us publicly professing to the whole world that we are father of Jesus Jesus was baptizing in front of every whole world John the Baptist was baptizing in front of everyone nobody it wasn't hidden from anybody so I think that I do think that the baptism is meant to be an aspect of function of the church. And we talk about um Protestant churches we talk we say there's the two ordinances are the Lord's supper and baptism. Right um so I think baptism is a function of the church now I don't think that necessarily means like oh well it's gotta be a pastor's got to baptize it's got to be in the in the thing that we created which is the um the baptistry in the back of the church you know or the front of the church whatever you I always get that confused with people like what's the front of the church and what's the back of the church. But good question especially in this campus. Yeah yeah for real um like is it by the back doors wait are those the front doors I don't know anyways um but um but I do think it's meant to be an aspect of uh something for the church not something that's meant to be done for uh in private because you're not publicly proclaiming that you're a follower Jesus um you know he confesses me before men you know that's one of the passages that a lot of times people well quote so um so I just think I just think that it needs to be something that is open I don't think that means that every single part of the church has to be there. Correct um but I think it's something that should be open to or available to the church. You know during during COVID we were we were at the same church back then it you know and during COVID um and a lot of times there would be baptisms done in pools that we would then show as part of the Sunday right you know they'd be a somebody's somebody get baptized in their own pool or a neighbor's pool or whatever it may be and then we'd show those as part of the as part of the worship service you know like hey here's some people that got baptized and tell their story a little bit so it become it done in private kind of because it had to be because of the all those crazy regulations but then it's something shown publicly um so I I think that I I think there just needs to be something that the church is aware that is happening. If I'm a member of a church I should kind of know when other people are becoming members of the church.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Did you know that um I want to respond to that too but did you know that our statement of faith um by the way we both go to we're both members of First Baptist Church Leesburg uh Southern Baptist Church our statement of faith is the Baptist faith the message 2000 did you know that our statement of faith says in order to take the Lord's supper you not only have to be a believer but you have to be a baptized believer.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

I mean that would make sense to me yeah it's been a minute since I've read it I've read the whole thing obviously but like that makes sense makes sense to me as yeah recently pointed out to me that makes sense to me as well I just I didn't realize it was stated in our in our document um the most a couple of recent conversations I had about private baptisms quote unquote uh one I had a a prospect for lack of a better term ask me uh can I get baptized at home in my pool and my response was sure as long as we invite the whole church and she was like oh no never mind that's not what I want to do I'm like well I'm happy to do it in your pool as long as you know let's do it at 1215 and just tell the whole church to come over to your house afterwards and they won't all come but they were all invited so very similar concept she declined.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

But kind of in reverse too I think you know somebody who if if we were to go uh jump in the the baptistry in the sanctuary right now on a Tuesday morning I I didn't just get baptized I just got wet because the church wasn't assembled in there. Right. And so just because the pool is in a building owned by the church just because you jump in it doesn't mean you got baptized. It's it's where the church is assembled. Which connects to the the Acts the Book of Acts arguments about uh the Ethiopian eunuch or Cornelius how like the things you just mentioned those instances are that's where the church was assembling. And today the church assembles uh not in homes although some some places do actually probably the majority of churches do around the world I should say in in 21st century United States of America a lot of our churches assemble in church buildings and so we baptize where the church is assembled. If your church assembles in a home then you baptize in that home but if your church assembles elsewhere you baptize where the church is assembled. So that's kind of where I I think the the principle from the book of acts still stands because we're we're doing what they were doing just in a on a larger scale in a different place. So anyways I I'm more more clear on the um baptism question than the the membership one. I I think I I know why membership exists. I know why I value it as a pastor but I I'm uh still thinking through how to word well um a response to someone considering church membership.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

So yeah um well I love I love the book um Tom Raynor I believe I am a church member yeah um I think that's a really accessible book too for I think it's I think it's short on purpose. You know I think it's meant for the uh for the um the general population you know for the general congregation yeah that kind I think it'd be helpful yeah but that's all I brought well membership and baptism I guess we have uh and I brought and I brought sports to sports betting I'll know for next time all right well this has been you have a hot take what's your hot take oh hot take oh yes I'm sure you've got plenty of hot takes I have so many hot takes um but my my hot take today is uh is that HOAs are un-American oh un American yeah okay you gotta leave it there uh my hot take is that you do not need a smartphone not you but our listeners I have one Dr.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Saxon has one but it's not uh you don't need it. That's all I have.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Okay. All right well in that case this has been Practical Matters because making theology practi practical matters. See you the next time. See ya