SPEAKER_00 0:04

Greetings and welcome to the Practical Matters podcast, where we believe that theology is practical and that it matters. I'm Kevin Saxton.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

This is Garrett Haywood. We're uh recording from the one of the bedrooms in my house. So if you hear some kids in the background, uh that's why.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, there are currently 10 children in this home. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

So and one puppy.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And one puppy. Um well, Garrett, let's start with today. Uh what are you working on? So you're a pastor in the local church and uh you you lead a congregation um here at a local church, and so what are you working on?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Oh, that's a great question. Um We are coming up on our one-year anniversary at Oxford campus. Uh our church has four campuses. Oxford is the uh the newest location. It launched on Easter of 2025, and we got up there in July of 2025, so that's now July of 2026 as we're recording. So we're coming up on one year. Uh year one was a lot of relationship building. Um I think there's several things I'm working on. I think one of the things that's uh taking a lot of my energy and attention right now is um starting more groups, which sounds very simple, but um given our facilities, trying to maximize our our on-campus uh groups that we can offer, um, and then also starting several uh we're gonna call them community groups, but several home groups um the week of Labor Day weekend. So uh trying to create more uh discipleship opportunities and make sure that our church is not just growing wide, but it's also growing deep. Our campus, that is, um, is is not just growing wide but also growing deep. So um other opportunities like that would be, you know, we we would see serve teams in in a similar light. Like if you're attending worship and serving or attending worship and grouping, um, that's that's sufficient. But I just feel like we don't have enough group offerings yet, and so that's um top of mind for me right now. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

What are you working on?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Well, as you know, obviously I'm a Christian school teacher, and so I um it's summertime, so I'm off of school. Um, but I have chosen this summer. Usually what I want to do is write, um, and I I have some things that I want to be working on and have been working on, um, but I'm also trying to read a lot this summer. Um, and particularly I'm just trying to read whatever, you know, some of the books I've wanted to read for a while. And also um I realized in my so I teach apologetics and I teach Worldview. And uh in apologetics, I realize we're teaching students how to defend the faith, but like some of these students don't really know the faith. You know, we say the faith. We you know, they they grew up in Christian school, maybe, or they come in high school, whatever it may be. Um, and so um what I'm working on is developing about a quarter worth of content, you know, nine weeks worth of content for um the Apostles' Creed. And so we're gonna teach students the Apostles' Creed, um, have them memorize it, but then also like trying to read through some content and discuss some content of the Apostles' Creed so we can really know what we believe, yeah, and then talk about how to defend what we believe. And so that's kind of what I'm working on putting together.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

I'd love to see it when you're done. I mean, that's gonna be one of our it's like our on-campus uh this connects back to the groups we just talked about. All of our on-campus groups teach the same curriculum at all four locations of our church. It's a pretty narrow uh pool of curriculums that you can choose from. Off-campus groups, it's you know, you have to have the stuff vetted, but it's a lot more open in terms of what you can teach. So one of the groups we're trying to start is a I don't know what we're gonna call it, but a systematic theology group, because I've had several people ask basic questions about the Trinity, about um, you know, the virgin birth, about simple things that are in the Apostles' Creed. And so we'll probably start, um we've already approached a guy who's praying about leading the group, but we'll probably start with the Apostles' Creed, maybe move on to you know, some some grudom or some Baptist faith and message. I don't know, but I'd love to see what you come up with for the Apostles' Creed, because I we feel something similar at Oxford. There's just some basics that people aren't familiar with.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm excuse me. I got some uh some great books I just finished um on I haven't finished it yet, probably will hopefully, God willing, finish it tomorrow. But um, Al Muller's Apostle Creed book. Um, I think we're gonna use J.I. Packers for our class. And then I think I have one more at home that's more of a workbook, but yeah, I'll uh we'll talk about it. Uh so we uh the format for our podcast, for this podcast, a practical matters podcast, is that we uh both brought a couple of issues that we have not talked about with each other. And so I am gonna ask you about two different things, you're gonna ask me about two different things, and it's gonna be a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And then eventually our wives will be like, it's time to stop. These children are crazy.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

It's Bethany, yeah. Someone's trying to break in the room right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, exactly. All right, so um I have a couple things for you. First off, um, I just want to know what you think about how a Christian should engage in social media, social media use and consumption.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

So those are two different things. Um use and consumption. So um I I mean I'll just say off the bat I consume a lot of social media. Um personally, um, this takes me back to my youth pastor days. I might answer this from a youth pastor perspective as well, but um there's an element with Gen Z in particular, somewhat with Millennials, where if they've posted it on social media, they expect you to know about it. And so, like when someone shows up on a Sunday and they had something big happen in their lives that week and they posted about it and got 300 likes or whatever, you can't ask them, hey, how was your week? You have to ask them, hey, how was that birthday party or how was that trip or what was your favorite part of XYZ? You don't have to, but you know what I'm saying? It's so much more meaningful when they realize you saw it and you are engaged in their lives. That means a lot to them. So I do consume a lot for that reason. Um I also think that uh there's an element of I don't do a lot of creating, but I would often encourage parents of teenagers to um in a healthy way allow their students to create on social because then it's not just the the doom scrolling as they say, but you actually have to exercise your creative muscle and think about appropriate content that you can create and edit and string together and post. And so I think if you if you use it to contribute to the platform and not just consume from the platform, it exercises a different muscle. But um But also, uh I mean if you check screen times and it can be a huge a huge time waster. Um you can really get caught in comparison traps and so uh so I don't know, those uh that's my initial response to the question is like I personally as a Christian uh I engage with it a lot because um I'm in the people in the people business and it helps me stay connected with people. Um but I think if you know a parent is going to allow a young person to engage with it, it might be healthy to not just be a consumer but also be a contributor. So those are some initial thoughts. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

That makes sense. I mean, you know, I I I love the idea about creative creativity, um, because obviously our creativity is rooted in God's creativity, the creativeness of the of the creator himself. So I think that's a great point. What what's um and what would you look at in the scriptures? If you're if you're saying, okay, I want to think about I want to think about um social media, like how I should engage with social media, um, I'm gonna look at the Bible, I'm gonna try and figure out what what it what it I mean what should we be looking at, you think?

SPEAKER_02 7:58

So this will be an interesting angle, but um Psalm 139, 13 through 16, uh rightfully so, a very pro-life passage. Um I was knitted together in my mother's womb, God formed my inward parts. And I apply that to social media because oftentimes social media will cause us to uh compare the worst things about our lives to the best things about someone else's life and get really discouraged by it. Because some some people are vulnerable and transparent on social media, some of it's fake, you know, you have to filter through all that, but mo most of the time people are posting the best things about their lives on social, and then you're scrolling through social, just you know, thinking about and mulling over the worst things about your life. And so if you don't have this biblical foundation of um God didn't just create the idea of you, he created you specifically, and uh don't compare yourselves to others, but root your identity in in the the God of the universe who created you personally, uh then then you might be able to scroll through and avoid some of those uh some of those comparison traps. But um I don't know, that's that's kind of a uh maybe that wasn't what you're looking for, but I think that's probably a good scripture to find to find roots in before you start scrolling.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

No, I mean I'm I'm just looking for whatever you got here. Okay. I think that's great. I mean I I think about a lot of things that we could talk about in how we engage in things as Christians, you know, like is the the pastors make the most of the time because the days are evil, you know. Um so how can we make the most of our time? And I I think that there has to be some level of healthy engagement in social media because that's the public platform of our day. Um but I think we gotta think so carefully about it. I think some of the things that you have said are some very helpful, careful ways to think about social media.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

You uh I don't know if I want to try and find it right now. I feel like the Joe Rogan podcast. Like, let me pull this up real quick. I preached a message on social media like 18 months ago in in youth group, and I can't remember for the life of me what the what the passage was. I believe I was there actually. It was something in Ephesians. Uh it'll come back to me when we move on to another topic. But um Psalm 139, I think off the cuff would be my answer.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

So yeah. Well, I think that's great. What about um, you know, I I think I think it's uh I I read comments on things sometimes. Like I'll look at a news story, for example, online and I'll I'm see that there's a bunch of comments. I'll go look at those comments, or I'll you know see a video. It's uh I I use social media sparingly, really. I mean, I um don't use Facebook, it really I have a Facebook. I I have an Instagram that I sometimes like to scroll on. I post when it's my family's birthday or whatever, you know. I have a Twitter, that one's public, but or X as it as it is now. But um but one of the things I like to do when I'm watching a reel or something is I look at the comments, and I feel like when I do that, I become dumber. Because those comments, comments on just about anything, yeah, are some of the worst garbage. Yeah. Like when you say social media, like I I think of social media sometimes like a dumpster fire. And when I think about what I'm talking, when I'm talking about it, like I'm talking about the comments. I'm not talking about the content, I'm talking about the things people say. At the same time, there's people out there whose entire platform is defined places where there's a lot of funny comments, and so that's fun too. So, you know, it's one of those things. But um, but how one of the things I have noticed about Christian content sometimes is that people will get into arguments, um, you know, or um, and I say arguments not in an argumentative fashion necessarily, although that's usually how at least one party sees it, but they'll get into arm arguments in the comments. Um, how helpful do you think that is for a Christian to do um to engage in the argument or to engage? Yeah, to engage in or reading it is one thing, engaging in it, those one I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

It depends, I think, is the um is the initial answer because there are some things that like you have to speak out on. Um I don't know. So like part of what we're struggling, I say we uh as I'm I'm putting my pastor hat back on is like um people are being discipled by those comments and not by the live local leadership that we put in place with small groups or whatever, the you know, their volunteer, supervisor, or whatever. And so uh we we are trying to navigate some of that where you know I I go to one of our small groups at church, my wife and I go um to one of our groups, and um just this past Sunday, somebody said, you know, well, I saw this on YouTube or I read this on Twitter, like people are being discipled by those comments. Um now some of those comments are helpful, and people will often talk about things behind a keyboard that they wouldn't talk about face to face like you and I are right now. And so perhaps that's a helpful angle where you can have conversations with somebody that you couldn't have in person. Um but I I guess j uh generally they're probably unhelpful. I've never engaged in in one of those debates online, uh, for whatever that's worth. Um so I guess I I guess just saying that I I don't see them as very valuable because I don't really engage with them.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

So yeah, same here. I don't either. I sometimes get super angry. You know what helps me sometimes is to be just to remember that most of them are bots. That's also true, especially when you see that they're making the same argument, multiple people saying the same thing, and like, well, that's not even real people. Okay, that's all right. I feel a little bit better that people don't really think that way, that is so help unhelpful and so harmful. Yes. Um that definitely helps sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Um I also just don't I don't I don't know, like you you know well that I can't see too good, and so I don't really read much. Like the move on social media to um to bite-sized videos has been like one of the best things for me because I just Hannah watches um Hannah's my wife. Like Hannah watch, you know that, but our listeners, whatever. So Hannah watches um videos on social media with all her sound off, and I think it's pretty common for a lot of people. I got my sound on and up. Like I just I love listening to stuff. I never open the comments on anything. So maybe that's just part of me and my abilities or lack thereof.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

You're better for it. Yeah. It's not good, I promise you. It's just not good. Um all right, well, I think that uh I think that's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Uh okay, a topic um I guess in a related world. So um I'm gonna narrow the question to this. Uh as a Christian in the United States of America, should Christians vote? Um I think the general arena is um is you know Jesus in politics, but that's you could talk about that for hours and hours, but um there's a uh I'm not gonna like ask you who you voted for or like party affiliation or anything like that, but there's a a line of thinking in Christianity that says like you just shouldn't vote at all. And the most Christian thing to do in this political context is to abstain. Um do you have thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, I mean, so that was kind of tricky. I mean, it's and you're right, like you talk about Jesus in politics, you could obviously write a book. It's kind of like social media. You could write a book about how to engage in social media, which would be irrelevant by the time it was published. Right. Um, but the so that's a that's obviously, and people have written a lot about um about Jesus in politics, that's uh for sure. Um, and I I've heard you know, I don't think you can go directly to the Bible and be like, well, here's an example of people voting, or here's an example of people not voting. Right. And so it's one of those things where man, we gotta sort out like the totality of scripture. Like, what what should we do? And I think it goes back to being citizens of an earthly kingdom, um, where you know, Romans 13 um tells us that we're supposed to respect the authorities, you know, and that's very clear. Um, there's another passage where we're I always remember it because it's uh has the word emperor in it, which I think in some versions, like where we're supposed to honor the you know the emperor as gifts. Yes. So, you know, we we are supposed to be citizens of the country in which we live. Like that is it's it's a secondary citizenship for a Christian, and that's the thing that I think that we don't think about too clearly because you you know you look at the the old testament in the Bible, and the the citizenry of the Hebrew people is also their followership of their God, um, our God, because the stories of the Hebrews are the stories of the Christians. So we we adopt adapt those stories, those became our stories as we were grafted in um as believers in Jesus. But um but I think sometimes we want to do that with the church and we want to try and turn the country, like our patriotism, into the same level as our Christianity or as our you know as our relationship with our God. And I think that's a mistake. So I I think that we have to recognize that our highest citizenship is our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven. And so that doesn't mean that there is no citizenship here. Like we we do live in a system, we do live in a um a system in which in many cases has been you know passed down through generations um so that humans can function and humans can flourish. And I think that um we have to look then, okay, what is our purpose here in the world? Our purpose here in the world is we could find at the very beginning in the Bible, our purpose here in the world is to be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth subdued, have to be the fish, the seas, the birds of the heavens, and over every limit that it creeps on the face of the planet. That's right. And so, as image bearers of God, is our job then to spread the image of God throughout the face of the planet, um, and it's to flourish. Like we are meant to flourish, and so we should support things that cause human flourishing. And so, as an American, then I have the opportunity to um to live in a country where human beings can flourish. I mean, human beings can flourish in the United States better than any country in the history of the world.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Agreed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

So the given whatever flaws we want to ascribe to it, it's still the best country in the history of the world for human flourishing. Yes. And so I ought to look at ways that as a Christian, my priority ought to be to create better better ways for humans to flourish. And in order to do that, I'm gonna have to vote. Yeah. Because if Christians don't vote, um that's a that's a huge portion of the punk population that's not speaking into who's the leadership of the population, which means that we could potentially not. I mean, I I really do believe that if we don't understand things according to God's design, we cannot um we cannot implement something that is truly good for humans. Only God knows what is truly good for people. And so we have to look at what God says is good for people, and and I don't think that a broken world can always see that. Right. Um, you know, there's common graces. There's lots of people who are not believers in Jesus that create good things and good systems. Some of the founding fathers were completely agnostic or theistic or whatever, um, but they created systems that that um led to and allowed for human flourishing. So there are common graces, um, but I think that um that Christians are the ones who know best because we have the instruction manual, the Bible, the word of God. And because we have the Bible, the word of God, like man, we ought to be speaking into how the thing is put together. It's like it's like holding, you know, there's a we use the apologetics text, um, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist by um um by uh Geisler and Turick. And great, great, but it was published in 2004, but that book is um, I mean, it's an amazing book, honestly. It's probably pretty timeless. It really is. And um, but they talk all throughout that book about having the box top to the puzzle, you know, putting the puzzle together and how you know you can't, it's hard to put a puzzle together if you don't know what the puzzle is supposed to look like. Um and as Christians, we really do have the box top. And so if we just say, hey, you know, we're gonna keep that to ourselves, um, we're not gonna engage in in public, you know, discourse or in public um opinion or in public um building uh through voting or whatever it may be, uh we're literally taking that box top from the rest of the world and saying, well, we'll just figure it out. Right. And I just don't think I don't think I was right. Like, and and I mean I'm sure that there are well-meaning Christians that can make an argument the other way. I just I think if we're gonna if we're going to I I don't think you can look to particular scriptures and and and make an argument the other way necessarily. I mean, I think that that would be reading into the scriptures, um, isegesis instead of exegesis. Um, but um, but I do think that if we're gonna do something that leads to her human flourishing it's gonna have to cause us to be involved. So we should vote.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

I would agree. Yeah, I I think we should vote. Um I just have some good friends uh who you would know that um say the most Christian thing to do is to not vote in this political context, and I just I strongly disagree with that. Um you mentioned a couple of scriptures, Romans 13, and then the other one, uh honor the emperors, first Peter 2. Yes. I recently heard a um I found this compelling. I wonder what you think. Um honor the emperor in Peter's day was uh Nero. Right. Um but today we don't have an emperor, and so the emperor in the United States of America is the Constitution, and the governors appointed by the Emperor are uh the president and um the actual governors of states and so on and so forth. And so you honor the emperor and submit to the governors, and we honor the emperor, our constitution, by voting in such a way that we think the constitution will be upheld and rightfully applied. I thought that was great. Uh thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 21:41

I think that's very wise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

I just I enjoyed that interpretation in an American context. I I enjoyed that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

So yeah, if you understand our constitutional system correctly, that's exactly the the governing document. It's a governing document, not a governing person. Right. Um, because we are not in a uh in a

SPEAKER_02 22:00

So for us, the document is the Emperor. Um That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

I like it. Yeah. All right, that's that's all I got on that topic. All right. Well, um my next one for you, this is kinda also goes along with living in America, is uh what what should we do about like how should a Christian engage in luxury? So you know, like luxury, like should I have the best and fanciest car? Should I, you know, live in the best and fanciest neighborhood? Should I, you know, like how should I whether I can afford it or not, you know, that's we're we'll we'll leave the money aspect of it, but like what should be my desire and my intentions with luxury?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

That's a great question. Um I I think I mean part of it is like the um the context in which you and I live, like we both live, globally speaking, we both live very luxurious lives. Um it's like the just the house we're sitting in right now. Um in America is just an average home, but like globally speaking, we live a very luxurious life already. Um and so it's kind of I I suppose in some ways luxury is is is is relative. Um I suppose. Um I think I would I think I would go to um uh where Tim where Paul says too Timothy that um a love of money is the root of all evil, so not money itself. But if uh because luxury requires money, um I I I would think. Um so I I think a uh you could probably um you know without doing too much gymnastics, you could probably substitute in the word luxury and say a love of luxury is is the root of evil, a love of money is the root of all evil. It's not the money itself or the luxury itself, but when uh when that is your pursuit, when that is your your object of worship, when that is your idol, when that prevents you from being generous to uh your church, to other family members, to your community, uh I would I would find that to be problematic. But um I I don't think the call to be a Christian is a call to be poor, um, but I do think it's a call to be generous, and if your if your luxuries are preventing you from being generous, then th that's probably problematic. Um now that said, um there's gotta be a line somewhere. Like should a Christian own a $20 million yacht and keep it in, you know, Miami some like is that okay to do? I don't know. Like so I suppose if you take things to extremes, like there has to be a line somewhere. But I think principally for for the majority, if not all the people that I minister to, I would just want to make sure that their luxuries are not preventing them from generosity and that their luxuries are not an idol in their lives. So those are my thoughts off the cuff. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

I'm not I mean, I think that's pretty I would think that would be pretty spot on to what um what I think of in scripture, you know, cause it's because it's relative. I mean, like you said, like there's it's not like you can just draw a line and be like, well, a Christian should never make more than a certain amount of a year, or um, and you know, although there were people throughout time, and I'm sure they still exist that you know have taken a poverty oath, you know, or um there that isn't generally something that the Bible points to. I mean, even Paul him Paul was industrious, Jesus was a carpenter. I mean, people were industrious, which means they would have had to make a living. Um, and I think that the generosity of others is certainly a part of that. You but look at like uh I like to look at like what happened with the Old Testament, you know, and and and a lot of the Old Testament stories are obviously um they're told to us so that we can see the character of God. They're told, you know, they may not be instructing us to do something, you know. They're they're a lot of times um excuse me, in the history books are more um descriptive than prescriptive, you know. But but look look at when the Israelites left Egypt. Um, they uh what you remember what they they did for all with all their neighbors before they left Egypt? The Passover. I mean what would you think? Well the Passover, but you mean before the Passover though, like so before the Passover, they um somehow got uh I don't know if I forget how exactly it happened, I think they just asked, and all their neighbors just gave them all their gold. Like their earrings and their clothes and like all these like luxuries of Egypt. And so when the Israelites left um left Egypt, they left with all those things, like they left with all that luxury stuff, and then what did they ultimately do with it? They turned it into a gold captain. Moses made them drink in the water. But um, but I think when we look at stories like that, like God told them to do that. Um, and perhaps it was to kind of set them up so that they would kind of see the idolatry of their own hearts. Um perhaps it was uh because he wanted to be able to bless them for them to be able to have things, um, you know, be able to barter along the way in the wilderness to the promised land or whatever it may be. I I don't know. Um But I I don't think that, you know, if God was just like you know, God is was always going to provide for them, right? That's why he gave them manna, that's why he gave the the um the birds that die. The um what kind of birds were they? I can't think of the word, but the you know the birds that died.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Sparrows? No, no, oh I was thinking like how he provides for the sparrows. Oh, we're we're still in the desert. Yes, the quills that yes. The quill, yeah, yeah, the quail. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

I was like, a dove landed on Jesus' shoulder, he provides for the sparrows. There was a raven on the ark. There was a dove on the ark. Um the sacrificial system had a lot of birds in it. But anyways, um so the uh I I think that you know, obviously God was going to provide for them, but God didn't send them out of Egypt empty-handed. And I find that interesting. Also, God gave them this great part of land in Egypt before they were when they first got there, the land of Goshen, and they, you know, they they had plenty there, and God continue to bless them even the land of Egypt when they're following him, or Egypt, not Egypt, Israel, when they're following God, God's promise through Moses, the Mosaic covenant, that as long as you follow my my rules, my statutes, then I'm gonna bless you with the land, um, this beautiful land that I've given you. And so I I don't think that God intends for his people to have nothing, but I think that we have to look at everything that he gives us for the kind of the same way where we're looking at it like um where we have it so that we can serve King Jesus. Yeah. We we don't have it to serve ourselves, we have it to serve Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Correct. I think there's an element of which like the the local church uh i in any area or any era uh kind of needs members, a few members of means. Like you think about in Acts the church gathering in in Lydia's house, like she was likely a person of means that had a home that could gather that many people.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Um now luxury is just I don't know, maybe I'm thrown off by the word luxury because like could she have spent more money and got an even bigger house? Maybe, I don't know. I don't know what her income was, but uh perhaps she had a big enough house to host her church and then gave generously to the church and the other people in her church who were who were needy. I don't know. Um I just think there's like I just find it problematic when we we make Christians feel bad for being well off. Um I think that's too too big of a blanket, um, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

No, I yeah, I 100% agree.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I mean it's which I don't think is what you're trying to do, but no um at all.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So No, I was I'm trying to say quite the opposite. I think God does provide for his people. Yeah. And he provides it so that uh I guess our kids want to be on the podcast there. Um but he provides it so that we can be a blessing to others, and it's a luxurious studio. Yes, it's very luxurious.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Well, I guess so the last question on this, unless you have more last question on this topic. Um how has the prosperity gospel influenced a Christian's view of luxury? Uh or has it?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I'm sure it has. I mean, I that's one of the things actually I was just reading in in Dr. Muller's book about the um Apostles' Creed. Actually, he was talking a lot about how it it's really the what the one of the biggest things that the uh that the prosperity gospel has done is diminished the the the devastating nature of sin. Yeah. So um we're saying it's kind of like you know, your your obstacles or whatever, God just wants to bless you, but we don't talk about the fact that we are depraved, utterly depraved sinners that are destined for a real place called hell, apart from the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Um so I think that it it undermines so much that so like when I was when I was in uh in college, like I I uh was in college my last year at Palmy Chalic University, they put me in the night ministry program. I was the youngest one there, I was 22 years old, and they're like, just you know, you're I had a full-time job as a fireman. So like they were like, Yeah, just go, you know, be a be in this night, this night program because you're an adult, you know, whatever. And I was like, I'm not really an adult, I mean, I've got a job. But but anyways, there was um there was someone in that class in one of those classes that was uh in ministry in the community and made the argument that um that they should have the best of everything because they're a follower of Jesus. And so, like, why shouldn't I drive around in the jaguar? And why shouldn't I have a big mansion and why shouldn't I have a big house? That's exactly what God wants me to do. Um, even in seminary, at Liberty Seminary, um, I was in class with distance learning, so you're in class with people from all over the world, and there are people that made the argument that Jesus suffered, so I don't have to, and so making the argument that we should live in luxury because Jesus suffered for us, and so I think that's exactly what you're talking about. I think that's the prosperity gospel taking over so that people start to say, well, they start to use it as a justification for the way that they live instead of looking at everything that God gives us as simply a blessing and holding it open-handed instead of holding it closed-handed, saying, God, what do you want me to do with this blessing? What do you want me to do with this good job I have? How do you want me to use it for your kingdom? What do you want me to do with this nice car that I have? You know, I like to have a reliable car. I'm not trying to buy the most expensive car, I'm not trying to buy an expensive car at all, really, but I want to have a reliable car. Right. So, how do I use this reliable car in the best way possible? How do I use this house in the best way possible, whatever it may be? I mean, even if you were gifted, you know, season tickets to the to the magic from you know, willed down to you from a generation or whatever. Like, but how do I use this blessing for the in the best way possible, you know? Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah, I suppose the prosperity gospel makes prosperity the object rather than making Christ the object of our of our worship and our pursuit.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

And um, if you if you pursue Jesus and happen to prosper in in the in the process, that's that's great. But if not, it's it's okay because because Christ is the object of our worship, not the prosperity itself.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

And we're temporary.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Also that here. Also that.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, you could come before we finish recording. I heard somebody this so um so the so I had it I heard an interesting take on um I I hope Jesus comes tonight. But I heard I heard somebody two weeks ago, I think it was, say, um, you know, I hope he comes, I hope he doesn't come yet. I want him to wait a little while. You hear that all the time. Like well, I haven't, you know, traveled the world yet or haven't gotten married, or what fill in the blank. A compelling argument though, uh, if there is one, um she said, Well, I I don't want him to come yet because I have family members that aren't saved yet. I was like, huh. I mean, uh, that's that was the first time where I paused and thought, well, maybe maybe if he could wait till tomorrow, you know. I still want him to come today, but you know what I'm saying? Like that was the first time where I was like, huh, that's a good that's a good heart posture. That's not one of my topics, but thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I don't know. I think we should have that heart posture. I think that's a great heart posture to think of it that way. I mean, I I know that Paul was trying to reach as many people as possible, but he wanted Jesus to come today.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

And so I think that you can I think it's a both hand, you know. I think we can hold both of those things in tension. Yeah, I want Jesus to return. Because it's gonna be so much better when he does.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

But and it's just a deep trust in his sovereignty that his his timing is right. Um yeah. Um, my final topic, I I'm trying to not to make them all church related, but I suppose this one is um uh can I go to church online? So uh a related question that we may or may not get into is you know, should churches have you know stuff online, stream online, should they have stuff archived online, should we have an online campus, stuff like that? But I think the broader question, the starting point, is simply uh can a Christian go to church online?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

So I don't that's that is a that is a tricky one because I think um you know there's so many different iterations of that right now, and that was and through the you know the COVID pandemic, like obviously that was ex you know, exaggerated um and amplified. So I I do think that that's uh it's a real thing we have to think about. And as a Christian, I gotta think about it too. Like I gotta think, like, uh, do I just stay home and watch church? And because this is why people talk about it, because you know, when um when we were um in the the lockdowns and not able to go to church, we would say we're gonna go watch church.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

We wouldn't say we're gonna go participate in church, and I think church is meant to be participatory, it's not meant to be a a demonstration for people or a performance for people, it's meant to be a gathering of the believers to encourage and build up one another. And I just don't know how you do that with any sort of regularity online.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Um now there are people who can't go to church, you know, like there's the there's there's shut ins, you know, there's people who physically literally cannot go to church. Right. Um, and I think that if that were the case, then that is that's the best they're gonna get in a way, you know, like they're gonna be able to participate in church that way. But I think that if that were me, I would be thinking of it as this is how I'm participating in church. And and I might even look for other ways to be in contact with, you know, the somebody at the church to be able to say, well, how how can I get involved in life at church? What are what are the prayer requests this week? What can I, you know, how can I be praying for those? Or you know, what are some who's somebody I could write a letter to? Or you know, I think that that would be something that I might want to engage in as a participation participation in the church. Um I I don't know that it's really you know, you look you have to look at like what the hallmarks of a church are. Um and do we meet those online generally, you know, where you're things like you're it's a it's a gathering. I mean the Bible's very clear it's a gathering. Yeah, so like it's a gathering of believers under qualified church leadership for the for the you know the purposes of um preaching the gospel, really. And so are are we doing that online? I just don't think so, but um, but I think that it's a valuable resource. Like, so I think that it's wise that churches will stream their their message. You know, some people have come to faith in Christ because they saw somebody's message that was streamed. Absolutely. I think that um when I'm traveling with my family or we're sick and we can't go to church, like it's a great way for us to still be able to hear our pastor's heart and um Yes. But that pastor that's preaching, we we know him, you know. Like it's not like um it's somebody that we're just okay, well, we're home today, so let's watch somebody else, you know. Like, no, I'm I want to still engage with my church family as best I can. The best it's gonna get today, because we're sick, yeah, is that we're going to get you know, we're gonna be online and we're gonna listen to the pastor preach and um and encourage one another, um, or you know, even gather together with other people that may not be able to make it, or whatever it may be if we're traveling, or you know, whatever, whatever the reason may be that we miss. I I I kind of think that we should try not to travel and miss church. Um I think that we should and I do it. I'm not saying I don't do it. I'm just saying it should be something that is an exception, not a rule. Correct. Like I think that we should be in church as often as we possibly can. And um, and I think that's for the for the betterment of our soul, you know, like so that we can do what we were supposed to be doing. God God did not intend for us to be here without church and to be doing life on our own. So I just don't think that relying completely on an online presence is the way to go about it. I think that it's a supplement for when we can't engage with our church family for whatever reason that might be, whether it's long term or short term. You know, if I'm a military member and I'm deployed, um, I cannot engage with my church family, but I still want to remain connected in a way. You know, I may still participate in whatever you know the chaplain might do in the military, but um, but also may still watch my church back home because I want to be engaged with the life of my church.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Um so complete yeah, I think some phrases you said complete reliance would be problematic, a supplement is acceptable. I think I would fall in line with all that. Because like someone's salvation through a piece of online content, legitimate, uh someone's growth in their faith through online content, legitimate, uh staying connected to your local church through online content, legitimate checking out a church through an online interface, that's great. I just struggle with the idea of um this is my church, and I I exclusively go to church online.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

That's that's problematic to me. Because of Hebrews 10, 24, and 25, don't neglect the gathering. Um, you know, it's not, you know, don't neglect the YouTube channel, it's don't neglect the gathering. Now there is I I should have I brought up this topic, so I should know the name of this church, but there is a church online that um is more than just streaming, but they um they do a lot of uh how did he put it? Um I'll just use the word discipleship. They do a lot of discipleship online. And so they're in the chat room in the lobby before church, they're meeting with people after church, they have um all kinds of Zoom groups for their church members to become a part of. Um he's got appointments for Zoom counseling sessions. Like it's just it's not just a we post a one-hour YouTube video every week, it's a very participatory um online church. I'll send you the link afterwards because I'll look it up later. But um if such a thing existed, which it seems like this might be it, there's a lot of screaming. Very happy. Or very scared one or the other. One of the two. If if such a thing exists, a very participatory online church, is that then an acceptable church experience or or not yet?

SPEAKER_00 40:29

I don't know, man. I would I would look at that as a well, let's see what the kids have to say.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

I would look at that as a uh I would look at that as a front door.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

You know, like maybe not even a front door, a screen porch. You know, like um if we're trying to get people to the point of moving from man, I'm not setting foot inside of church to being a believer in Jesus who's engaged in a local church, I think that that's I think it's a stepping stone, you know. Um and I think that that's a I think that's a legitimate ministry. I don't know that I would say that if that's the only presence, if there is no push to get people involved in a physical local manifestation of the church, um I I wouldn't I don't I don't know, man. I don't think I don't think that we're talking about a full-fledged gospel church, you know?

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Um but I think it's an excellent strategy. I and I I applaud anybody that's doing it to try and get people, you know, there's there's always like it seems like in communities there's always like churches that are kind of focusing on some slightly different things, which I think is a blessing. You know, we we look at churches not as competition, but as you know, as as brothers and sisters that are in this together. If we're preaching the gospel, and you know, we may have some slight, you know, gospel or some slight denominational distinctions or whatever it may be, but um and those are real, but like there's some churches and communities that usually do a great job of getting people in the door and preaching the gospel, and there's some that do a great job of really discipling people, and there's there's some that do a great job of sending people on mission and both locally and internationally, and um I think that's I think that's great. I think that's right, I think that's good, and I think that if there's a church out there that's trying to get people in the screen porch, praise God. Yeah, let's let's get some more people, but but let's keep the pipeline moving.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yeah, you know, yeah, that's right. I love a good screen porch, that's good. You brought up church competition. Um have we talked about the Coke Pepsi principle before? Have we talked about this?

SPEAKER_00 42:22

I mean, I'm all Coke, so I don't really know anything about Pepsi. Do people even see we had this debate on the bus to kids camp last week? Did people even drink Pepsi? Like, is that even a thing?

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Where was I? I was at okay, I was at the Southern Baptist Convention, which this year was held in Orlando. It's it's been 16 years since it was in Orlando, but that none of that really matters. We're at the Orange County Convention Center, and the entire convention center is Pepsi.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Somebody got kicked back.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah, I guess so. Um, anyways, yeah, people do drink Pepsi. But the principle is this so um it's marketing 101, quite literally, marketing 101. Uh, if there's a Coke vending machine in an office space, uh that Coke vending machine will sell 50 Cokes a month. Um, but if you put a Pepsi vending machine directly next to it, six inches away, you would think, well, the Coke machine will sell 25 and now the Pepsi machine will sell 25. They'll just split the profits. But what actually happens is the Coke machine sells 200 and the Pepsi machine's machine sells 200. Because I'm telling you 203. And now somebody, somebody walking by, uh, it's it's also psychology 101 in some ways, but it's uh I learned it in marketing class. It's somebody walking by is not deciding do I want a soda or not. They're deciding do I want a Coke or Pepsi? And then they buy something.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

And applying that to local churches, like when there's a local church down the street that's doing well, like praise the Lord, because now the unchurched in the community, they're not deciding, do I go to this church or go nowhere, uh, but do I go to this church or that church? And they might end up somewhere. And so I like uh you know, I've I've told many people about this in in youth group because there's always the bump in youth group down the street, and I'm always like, I don't I'm not scared by that. I'm like, praise the Lord for that, because it probably means our like you know, a rising tide raises all ships, like it's probably gonna cause our group to grow. Like, don't be don't be afraid of that or feel that as competition. And so, anyways, that's for free for coming today. But the uh the Coke Pepsi principle, I love it when a church down the street is thriving. I love it. For kingdom reasons as well, but in in terms of church growth, I think it actually helps.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

No, absolutely, yeah. Anyway, I think that's great. And I mean, I would I would question those numbers with a Coke and Pepsi thing, obviously, because I don't think anybody's making a choice to you know it's it's the other brands with Pepsi cells that make this difference. They probably don't have Pepsi in those machines. You probably couldn't even get one if you wanted because anyway, I don't think they make it. Anyways, um but yeah, it's a it's a great principle that uh they're very interesting. And that's why I've noticed about people who go to business school that sometimes they can really take some of those things and apply them to the church in the in a helpful and and beautiful way. So thanks for another business degree or whatever you did.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

I did that at one time.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yep, that was uh that was great. All right, hot take time.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Oh, am I going first or are you going first?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Um you can go first.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

The uh I I love basketball. We talked about sports last time. The greatest player of all time is LeBron James. And as we're recording this, I haven't checked my phone in 30 minutes, but LeBron has not signed anywhere. I think he's going to sign with the Golden State Warriors this week. Two hot takes. You gotta BOGO tonight.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah. Yeah. I disagree with your first and don't care about your second, but whatever. Uh my hot take is that um raw vegetables, and for the most part, should not be consumed.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Oh, raw raw vegetables, they should be cooked first. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

And if you don't cook them either chemically, you know, through pickling or whatever it may be, they're really just just about inedible.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Fair enough. Uh I think I would generally agree, actually.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Disgusting. Anyways, uh, well, that has been then the episode number two of Practical Matters Podcast, where we believe that th theology matters and making theology practical matters. So join us the next time. See you then. See you next week.