Practical Matters
Kevin Saxton (Ph.D.) is a Bible teacher at First Academy in Leesburg (FL). Garrett Haywood (D.Min.) is a Campus Pastor at First Baptist Church Leesburg in Leesburg (FL). Together, they believe that making theology practical matters for the everyday Christian. Join Dr. Saxton and Dr. Haywood as they discuss practical theology in accessible, insightful, and engaging ways.
Practical Matters
PM003 Children, Grandparents, Isolation, & Boycotting
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Greetings and welcome to the Practical Matters podcast where we believe that making theology practical matters. I'm Kevin Saxton. This is Garrett Haywood. And this is episode 003 of the podcast. So we're on our way to 999. Um weekly podcast. So check us out every week. Hey, um Garrett, you are a local pastor. I am a local Christian school teacher. Um, but I think that if we were introducing ourselves, that would not be the primary thing that we say that we are. Um primarily we're family men. That's right. So uh tell us about your family.
SPEAKER_03Oh, sure. Um I'm married to Hannah. Um we have been married for uh we've been married for eight years, and uh we have three children. Um Maylin is our oldest, she just turned five, and then uh Piper is three, Gunner is two, so we have three kids. And um and yeah, we uh Hannah and I met uh in high school, we're high school sweethearts and um got married. Um Dr. Saxton here actually officiated our wedding um in uh 2018. If you can believe that's almost been a decade ago. Um yeah, the Lord's blessed us with uh with three kids, and um I grew up in Central Florida and met Hannah in Central Florida, and so I'm glad to be back in Central Florida here with my family. So tell us about your family.
SPEAKER_00Well, um I'm married to Tracy, and we've been married uh coming up in January would be our 20-year wedding anniversary. Oh my gosh, which is crazy because I still feel like we're you know basically kids. Um we're going to Alaska to celebrate our 20 years, so that's super, super exciting. Um, but we have seven children, all biological children. Every time I say I have seven children, everybody's like, are they all yours? Um they are, they all are ours. Um Ruby is 17, Charlotte is 15, Annabelle and Micah are 13, they're twins, that's how that works. And then Josiah is our kid we had to show everybody we were still serious. He is 12, and Adeline is 10, and Judah is eight. And there's never a dull moment at the Saxton home. Um, Tracy and all my kids were all actually all nine of us were born in Palm Beach County, Florida. Um is that right? Yeah, it's kind of crazy because I didn't grow up there. But um, but I went back there as a teenager and then we spent you know a couple decades. Tracy's born and raised there. This is the first time she's ever lived outside of Palm Beach County was when we moved up here three years ago to Central Florida. So Wait, wait, wait. You were born in Palm Beach County? I was. It's crazy. Most people don't realize that I was. I know you because you were in Calhoun until you were like a teenager. I was in Georgia, yeah. I well when I was a baby, we moved to California. My social security number was actually issued in California. Okay. Um so we lived in California for a couple years, had a brother born there, and then we moved to Georgia, and I was ra I always say I was raised in Georgia. I moved from Georgia to Florida when I was 16. Right. So back where we came from, because my we moved down there to be with my grandmother who was still there.
SPEAKER_03I don't think I knew you were born in Palm Beach County. Okay. May Lynn was born in Palm Beach County. That's the only one in our household born in Palm Beach County. Huh? Born in Wellington.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's that's one of our family things. No matter where we end up, we were all born in Palm Beach County.
SPEAKER_03That's pretty cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Pretty cool. All right. So the format for our podcast is that I brought two topics that you have not talked about or we have not talked about. So I've got two topics, you've got a couple topics. Um so on the topic of family, I'll give you one of mine. Uh-oh. Um I'm afraid you're gonna steal mine. Go ahead. Oh no, so mine is um mine is like, how should a Christian child behave, and what is the Christian parent's responsibility in that?
SPEAKER_03Oh man, what a question. Um I'll give you two scriptures, uh, I suppose three, but um two and a half in a way. So um one of the ten commandments is honor your father and mother, and then uh Paul, of course, um picks up on uh that commandment, and he says it's the only commandment with a promise, honor your father and your mother. Uh so I think that's a significant scripture for this conversation. I also think in in Colossians, Paul tells uh fathers in particular, um, don't provoke your children to anger when you're talking about the parents' role in all of this. But um I think a Christian child um honors their father and mother by being obedient to their father and mother. So by picking up on that Colossians passage, um uh Paul addresses fathers in that passage, but he actually also addresses children, which anyone who says that the Bible is not for kids, they're wrong, because there are verses specifically addressed to children, and in Colossians three is one of them. And um so children, I think, honor, I think they obey that commandment from Exodus 20 uh in Colossians 3. They honor their father and mother um in their childhood years by obeying their father and mother. And so I think our role in that as Christian parents is um is to uh is to discipline them. So now we're getting to Proverbs as well, uh discipline with with the rod, um, and give them instruction uh that they can obey and grow up not just to be mature, uh contributing uh people in society, but also Lord willing to grow up to know and love Jesus one day. So um see, I think they uh Christian children should be obedient children, um, and that's the way they honor their parents, and uh parents should not provoke their children to anger in the process. Um I think Christian children should be um uh should be respectful to others and um and should be good examples of um uh it's to other children um that they that they play and interact with. So uh my j my children are very young, so we're we're definitely in the you know, as you look at some of the the stages of parenting, we haven't quite make it made it to the the coaching stage or the friendship stage yet. Uh you some of your kids are in those stages, but um allegedly. Yeah, yes, that's right. Um yeah, o obedience, I guess, uh to to sum up everything I just said, obedience is um how Christian children should behave. Is that too general for what you're looking for?
SPEAKER_00No, I mean it's a pretty general question. Okay. You know, there's a there's a lot of different lot of different aspects to parenting. You know, our our our good friend and pastor for a long time, Pastor Jimmy Scrogins, you'd always say parenting isn't for sissies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh boy is that the truth. Um our family, our families are kind of funny because like um my oldest, or my youngest is eight, your oldest is five.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00So it's almost like you picked up where we left off. You know, it's kind of like we just kind of continued. Um but they are uh yeah, in so many different different stages, it's it's hard not to be general, you know, because it'd be like, how should a how should a 17-year-old behave? How should a you know, how should an eight-year-old behave? You know, there's so many different things, but I think that generally, I think you're I mean, just spot on. Now, let me ask you, this is this is uh I don't know if this would be a different question or whatever. This is just kind of something that I always think about. You know how sometimes people say um it's my job as a parent to embarrass my kids.
SPEAKER_03No, no.
SPEAKER_00Um I detest that saying. What do you think about embarrassing your children?
SPEAKER_03Um I I don't like the idea, so like I uh this is a very personal application of that question, but like my family is often the subject of sermon illustrations, um, which I'm comfortable with as long as um my wife is not the butt of the joke or my kids are not the butt of the joke. Well, oftentimes actually Gunner is the butt of the joke, but he's he's in imminent danger and then doesn't actually get hurt. But I don't tell a story that's of him that's gross or where he actually hurts himself. Um because that to me would be embarrassing. Like I t I tell stories that when when Gunner's 16 and he watches a recording of my sermon from 14 years ago, because he's gonna do that, you know, um he won't be embarrassed that dad told that story. So that's a very a very personal I I understand that not everybody preaches, but I'm I'm very cautious with you because personal illustrations are so powerful, but I don't want to ever like illustrate something really well for the congregation, and then my family's embarrassed by the story I told to illustrate the text. So no, I don't like embarrassing my kids at all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I feel the same way. And and people say that particularly about teenagers, they'd be like, Oh, it's my job to embarrass my teenagers. And you, you know, in some ways you can't help the way that they feel. Um, sometimes my kids are embarrassed by something that really really shouldn't be embarrassing, you know, because they have that um, you know, teenagers have the invisible audience uh around them at all times, you know, that they're that's that concept where they feel like everybody is looking at them, um, which is exactly how their friends feel, which means that in reality, no one is looking at them, you know. Like it's it's it's such a it's such a silly thing, but um, we all went through it. And uh and so sometimes they get embarrassed, you know, from just because that's the way they feel, but it's not the intention, you know, there's no there's no embarrassment intended. Um, but I I yeah, I wholeheartedly reject the parents are supposed to embarrass their kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I just think I think it goes directly against what Paul's talking about in that um Ephesians passage that you referenced, Ephesians 4. Um, or no, not four, six. Is it six? Six, yeah. Yeah, um, Ephesians six, where it talks where he says, like, um, uh, don't exasper, you know, basically don't exasperate your children, but raise them up the fear and admonition of the Lord. I I just think that if we're going out there trying to embarrass them, yeah, that's that's terrible. But yeah, but back to the original question, um, I I yeah, I absolutely think that our children should be obedient. I mean, I think that's why it's a qualification for an elder.
SPEAKER_03Yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, and the elder's got to have an example in his family. We we can't control everything our kids do. Right. Um, our kids are going to do things that are disobedient, our kids are going to draw negative attention to themselves at various times. It'd be nice if that weren't the case, but it's going to happen. Um so yeah, I think that I think that our kids though should in general um be obedient.
SPEAKER_03And one of our uh one of my favorite phrases right now is is figure it out. And it's like with my curious what you think about this, like with my little all my kids are little, what am I saying? With my little kids, um dad, can you open my water for me so I can fill it up? Have you tried yet? Sure, figure it out, yeah. Um just little things like that, um, or even stuff I know they can't do and they're going to need my help. I want them to try first. Yeah. And so I just tell them, hey, figure it out, see if you can figure it out first, and then come ask me. And I think that's helpful for them to uh develop faster. Um we'll we'll see how it goes. There's time less.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's you know, it's one of those tricky things like where uh I see this happen sometimes where there's things that they can do, but we still do them for them because we want to feel like it's it's you know, I want to be a blessing to my kids.
SPEAKER_03Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I'll still do things sometimes that I know that they can do. And it's admittedly, like it's it's more of a as a dad, it's more of a um that happens more with my daughters probably than with my sons. But excuse me, but um, but I I feel the same way. Like you come, you you gotta try it, you gotta do it. Like what are you doing, man? Like, I don't know how to do that. Well, you're gonna figure it out. Yeah, like today, actually, when I get home this afternoon, like we're gonna be uh we're gonna be unclogging a sink.
SPEAKER_02Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00Um, and we're gonna be doing some sanding and painting of some wall patches that we've had to do because you know when you have seven kids living in the house, you patch some walls. Um and uh I'm I'm not doing it. Yeah, so we're gonna talk through it and they're gonna learn how to do it, and that's that's what you gotta do. Yeah, I totally agree. Like you gotta figure it out sometimes.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Uh I I have a related topic if if you're ready to move on, or if you have another one. Um, I thought you were gonna steal my my question about uh grandparenting. This is that's something we've talked about before. And um so I I I suppose it's a two-pronged question, uh, because I think it works both ways, is um how should grandparents think about their grandkids, uh think about their kids in this new season as well, but think about their grandkids, treat their grandkids, invest in their grandkids. Uh where is the line of too little, too much? But the I think the other side of that question is how should um children uh what's the best way to put this question? What what should children expect from their parents now that their parents are also grandparents, if that makes sense? Or are they expecting too much, too little? Um so kind of two sides to the same question about Christian grandparenting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think I I do think saying Christian grandparenting is a very wise thing to say, because I do think that the way that we parent is different than the rest of the world. Um I mean, I again, you know, there's common graces, so there's certain things that have been picked up and noticed by all the society that we got to do in parenting, but um, but Christian grandparenting similarly would be different. So um kind of the the model now for grandparenting is um, especially if you don't live in Florida, is to uh retire and move to Florida and expect the grandkids to figure it out. And um maybe that then you know maybe they stop by every now and then and like you know, come when are you guys gonna come see us, even though we're the ones that moved, you know, a thousand miles away or whatever. Um and I see that I've seen that for decades as a firefighter for 20 years. Like that was one of the things I noticed was that I was the grandchild because they'd called 911 because they didn't have anybody else to call when they couldn't get off the floor in the middle of the night, or they couldn't, I we literally would have calls sometimes where you go just to pick up the remote control off the floor because they couldn't get it for their TV.
SPEAKER_03And so Oh, I thought I's sorry to interrupt. I thought you misspoke and meant to say I was the grandparent. You're saying I was the grandchild. I was the grandchild. Well, like if the grandkids lived close, the grandkids could help the grandparents with basic things.
SPEAKER_00100%. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. So me and and the the folks that I worked with at the fire department, we were the grandparents or grandchildren. Um, and you'd ask them sometimes, like, hey, is there anybody you can call to come over and stay with you the rest of the night, or you know, whatever, and they'd be like, Well, no, everybody's in New Jersey. Um, and there'd always be like a family member that lives in Broward County, you know, a county away, and they'd be like, But I don't want to bother them. It's like, bother them. There's five of us here right now. But granted, that's our job, but like, what are you doing? Anyways, um, so that's the current model of of American grandparenting is you know, the the grandkids are meant to be a blessing to the grandkids, are kind of seen as like just meant to be a you know, a kind of a an ornament of the life of the grandparent, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yeah, it does.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't think that's the way that Christians should do it. First off, I think that when um when your kids get married, when my kids get married, the Bible says that they're supposed to leave their father and mother and they're supposed to cleave to their um to their spouse. And so um the authority that I have in their life as their father then completely changes once they become husband and wife, um, where they are now establishing their own family. Yes, they are still my flesh and blood, and yes, I still have a responsibility to them, and and they have a responsibility to me, but the relationship has must change because I don't get to control what they're gonna do in their life. I don't get to say, well, I don't think that you guys should move to Taiwan and be missionaries. I I don't I'm gonna say that. Like that's not my that's not my job to say as as the parent, um, because they are their own family entity. Um what I do think my role in as a would be as a grandparent uh is I want to be a blessing to my kids. I I believe that children are a blessing. The Bible's very clear that children are a blessing. You don't see the Bible talk about children in any way but blessing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so we know that children are a blessing, and so regardless of how difficult it is, my children are a blessing to me, and and it is difficult sometimes. Um, but it's still a blessing. And so that difficulty is better than not having that difficulty because the difficulty means I get to have those kids. So they are a blessing to me. And so my job as a grandparent then would have to be to be a blessing to them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I get the value of, you know, like your grandkids are there. People say like your grandkids are your um are your gift for not like killing your own kids or whatever. Um, and I know that grandkids will be a blessing because kids' children are always a blessing. So grandchildren will be a blessing. Um, but I think that my role then as a grandparent will be blessing in return. And so um my role would have to be uh to meet the needs that I possibly can with my children. Like they need a babysitter, I'm their babysitter, they need um, they need something. Uh and you know, there's there's a way where you you might have to create some sort of boundary, you know, like hey, like we gotta have some sort of you know, time. I can't give you all the money, you know, you gotta have a job, you know, whatever it may be. But I think that um within within reason, it is my job simply then to to be a blessing. And I think it I think it goes for the church as well. I think as a grandparent, if I'm not as a retiree, if if that you know is a thing I'm able to do, which I you know that that is my hope to retire you know relatively as soon as I can, relatively young and be a blessing to my kids, be wherever they are. Um but uh our job, our other role would be that we should be a blessing to the church. And so if I have more free time than the general church attender, a church member, um, then I should use that free time for the kingdom of Jesus. And so what do I need to do to use my time um for the kingdom of Jesus? And so I can be not only a blessing of a grandparent to my own flesh and blood, but so that I can do exactly what Peter was talking about and essentially be a father within the church as well. Um, and my wife as well. I know it's her heart as well, would be to be a mother within the church, you know, the same thing. We have the same, we have the same goal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So um that's a whole nother related topic, but like what is what is Christian retirement? Maybe we could come back to that one one day. Um yeah, Christian grandparents in particular. I think you mentioned you mentioned boundaries, um, and how that there should probably be a boundary at some point, like don't you know, don't give the kids too much money or too much time or whatever, um, which is true. I just think we're speaking into a culture where uh we need to call Christian grandparents to step up, not cool off. No, 100%. And so I I wouldn't be too much, yeah, I wouldn't have too much concern about uh about that kind of a boundary yet, although it's it is it is wise to it's certain it's that's a thing as possible.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of back to the same conversation. Like sometimes my kids can do something, but I do it for them. Um you have to just be wise in that. Like, what are the things that I need to allow my kids to do, and what are the things that I need to do as the as the father and grandfather at that point, you know? But I think you're right. That it needs to step up for sure. It's you're right. I'm just kind of you know hedging for that couple of situations that might be out there, you know.
SPEAKER_03You have to and my my parents are personally are doing a great job. Your parents are awesome. They're doing an awesome job. This conversation was kind of sparked by a lot of my current season of ministry is with church members who are themselves grandparents, and some of their thoughts and perspectives on grandparenting has been uh helpful and insightful uh or concerning and confusing. And so it it hasn't come from personal experience for the most part. Uh it's it's actually come from uh conversations with with church members and trying to clarify uh what is Christian grandparenting. So um talking to you about it recently has been helpful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um that was a topic. So there's a guy, Josh Mulvahill. Um he wrote a book about his basic a theology, establishing a theology of Christian grandparenting because it's something that really hasn't been done. He's written some other things since then. Um he and I were in PhD school together, and that was one of his passions was uh that Christian grandparents weren't really there wasn't like a there wasn't anybody talking about what Christian grandparents are supposed to do. And so that would be uh that's a guy to definitely look up Josh Mulvahill. Maybe we can look at it. How do you spell his last name? It's uh M-U-L-V I H I L L, I believe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, spell it like it sounds. Yeah. Okay, I'll I might link him in the description.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think he's up in Minnesota last time I knew.
SPEAKER_03If I can remember to do that. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03What's next?
SPEAKER_00All right, so um so this one it's it's kind of broad, but uh what what do you think about like Christian isolationism? Like that could be that could mean a lot of things. But I mean like I have this I have this back of the mind, like, man, what I would love to do is buy a couple hundred acres and live in the middle of it. Oh yeah. Like and uh you know, just kind of leave when you need to, not when you know, not any other time, and um kind of isolate ourselves. But I think that more than that, I think that sometimes Christians might isolate in lots of other ways. And so um so that might be, you know, some versions of homeschooling or some versions of you know, we're not gonna do anything that the world does. You know, do you know you understand what I'm saying? I do. So yeah, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03Um great question. Um so a couple angles on it. Like one is um like in Genesis we're told that man was not created to be alone, um, which we could go on about that verse, and you know, is it specific to marriage or is it uh you know also broadened to community in general, or is it both? But I think generally speaking, man was not inherently man was not created to be alone, uh Christian or not. Right. Um and so that there's that part of just our our design as humans. Um we we were designed that way by the designer. As as Christians, though, we are we talked a little bit in the last episode about church. Um we we are designed to be in Christian community, now that we've repented of our sins and believed in Jesus, we should gather with like-minded believers once a week in in gathered worship and serve with them and fellowship with them throughout the week. Uh so there's that aspect of being a Christian in community. Uh, but then also um uh then also there's a there's a missional component of uh go therefore and make disciples by baptizing and teaching. Um you have to go, you have to be among the people. There's all kinds of strategies and training on on what going looks like in this context in this day and age. Um but the principle is you gotta go. And so um I think you can do both. Like I can I think you can you can own a house on 200 acres and retreat, but uh you still have to you still have to get off property and um be in the community, be in your church, uh be going, be gathering. Um so see, I think the maybe your example threw me off because I think a Christian can own a lot of land and live there. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But and not be isolated, but I think you can also have a Christian on you know uh a 5,000 square foot zero lot line that's very isolated as well. It's it's less about where you live, it's more about how you live. Yeah, and um I think humans in general are not meant to be alone, but Christians especially uh cannot live their life isolated. So that's what that's what a few scriptures. I think it's uh Genesis 2, Hebrews 10, Matthew 28 would be the kind of the scriptures we just referenced there.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. I mean that that's the thing. Like I I think in my natural tendency, I would want to interact as little as possible. Um, but as a believer in Jesus, I know that that's not how you make disciples. You make disciples by being where the people are. You know, Jesus hung out with the sinners. Um and so I'm not saying that, you know, all I I I'm in a class, you know, I see a hundred students in a classroom a week. Um I'm not saying that they're all a bunch of sinners, I mean we all are, but you know, you know what I mean. They're not all like they're not all pagan. Um but that's that's I do that not because it, you know, not because it's what I always dreamed of doing as a child, I do it because it's what God called me to do, and I love it, like I love doing it. Um, but it's because it's what God called me to do. In my natural state, you know, I would I would most be more likely um to be working on some rural ranch somewhere, you know, just taking care of somebody else's horses or whatever. My natural state, but um because I'm a Christian, a follower of Jesus, I'm gonna be where the people are. Well, that's what Ariel said to quote the great theologian. Gosh.
SPEAKER_03I still think I still think Christians can raise horses, though. Like it's not 100%. It's not necessarily about living on a ranch or not, it's how you how you live from that from that place of residence um that that is the issue or not the issue. Uh some helpful language from psychology. I don't I don't know the etymology of introverts and extroverts, but I do find the categories helpful. But I do find someone's sometimes uses as an excuse. Well, I'm just an introvert. Um that's fine, but like introversion, you draw your energy from being alone, but you still need to be around people. I'm an extrovert, like I love being around people. I draw energy from being around people, but I still need time alone. So it's kind of the reverse of all that. So you you have some some categories there that are helpful, but sometimes people use as use them as an excuse. Like, well, I'm just an introvert. Yeah, it's it's fine. Like schedule some time by yourself, but you gotta also, as a Christian, get around people. No, 100%.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, that is my thoughts. I mean the statistics usually say something to the effect of like 60% of people are introverted, whereas like only about 40% are are extroverted. Yeah. Um I'm an introvert for sure. Um, my wife is an extreme extrovert, so she's energized by people, I'm drained by people. Yeah, but we still both want to be around people, and so that's what we do. And then we go home and we're still around people because nine of us live in the same place. There's always people. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03It's it's also like, and then we can move on. I you know, it's like I don't have a huge personality, so like you think I'm an introvert, but like I by definition, it's where you draw your energy from. I draw my energy from being around people. I love being around people. Um, and then I have to make sure to discipline myself to some time alone, but like I have people in my house every night. Like, I just I love being around people. It's it's it's awesome. Um, so any anyways, I I I don't think Christians should isolate. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I mean there's there's again there's various ways that that can happen too, you know, where we we may be unintentionally isolating by the way that we may and and I certainly, you know, like I I mentioned homeschooling. I I actually think that for the most part, like homeschooling is probably top option, you know, if you're talking about like what's the best way for me to dislipe on my kids. Um but yeah, and again, like my kids are not homeschooled. We all they all go to the same school where I teach, um, which is the next best thing because it's it's uh I always like to talk think about it in terms of fishing partners. Like um, I'm I'm fishing for men, um, I'm fishing for the lot of the souls of my my children, uh, and so now I have people that are helping me. And so I got a whole fishing team that are helping me to disciple my kids. Um, we all have the same priorities and are moving in the same direction, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I think sometimes, you know, I I was I was homeschooled for you know 11 years growing up. So I know about homeschooling a little bit, and uh and there and there's way or there's versions of homeschooling where you don't interact with people, yeah. Um for fear of the world or for whatever it may be. And I I don't think that's necessary. I think you could do I think you can homeschool in a way that is still exposing your children to people that need to hear the good news of Jesus and be and encourage them. Yeah. Um obviously that's a huge aspect of the church, which you know comes up every time that we we talk is that the church is so important in the lives of believers. Yes. And it's huge.
SPEAKER_03So I think post-COVID uh we're kind of rabbit trailing here, but post-COVID homeschooling the um the uh stigma around it is is different. Uh oh yeah, that's true, that's true. It's it's normal now. I I think it's it's very anecdotal, but like it feels normal to homeschool your kids. I say that we're about to homeschool May, so maybe I'm biased, but um right, wrong, or indifferent. I feel like the stigma used to be like homeschoolers are weird. And some of them were, not all of them were though. Like um, but today it just seems like such an like just oh you're homeschooling? Of course you are. Like it just seems so normal to do it. And a lot of homeschool kids these days, not all of them, but a lot of them are more socialized and articulate than some of the public school kids. Like, I don't know, I I just think the tide has changed.
SPEAKER_00No, it's certainly that's all anecdotal, but it feels changing to me. No, it's it's certainly. I mean, I'm as a as someone who was homeschooled in the 80s and 90s, homeschoolers were all weird, including us. All of them still trying to recover. But um yeah, I think I definitely think that the uh I definitely think that the the tide has changed on that, which is which is for the best. Yeah, and my kids um I ended up going to public school and then I ended up going to Christian school, that's where I graduated from. So I went to all three, and my kids have done all three as well. And so I certainly don't want to make it sound like I'm you know negative on on any of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because it's uh well, and that's another topic for another day is uh school choice. But as a Christian, you have to do that intentionally. But we'll talk about that another day. So what do you want to talk about for today?
SPEAKER_03Um, well, maybe I want to talk about schooling. I don't know. Um I'll tell you what my other topic was. So uh very very broad. Your your topic last episode about luxury made me think of a broad topic about boycotting and um should Christian like what is boycotting in its in its simplest form, and then should Christians engage in it? Is it effective? Um, and so we could talk about that, save that for next week and talk about schooling. What do you want to tackle?
SPEAKER_00Let's uh let's talk about schooling another day. Okay, like a teaser.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Um well boycotting then when you hear that word, what do you hear? What is it? And then should Christians do it? Is it effective? Uh, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, boycotting, that's a that's an interesting one. Um, and I can see how that would be something that you would think. That that one is it is challenging to think about boycotting. So boycotting would be if I'm a Christian and I say, hey, this this uh organization is directly working against this business, is directly working against what I believe in and what I value, then I would say, hey, I'm not going to participate. I'm not I'm not gonna spend my money there. Um I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna promote it, I'm not gonna spend my money there. And that and that's happened in various iterations of my life. I've seen it happen and over and over and over again. And interestingly, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, you know, like um I've seen um I've seen back in in the day when they first started having like gay days at Disney World, um, that a lot of Christians said they were gonna boycott. Well, literally nothing changed.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Um, but a couple years ago when um Target rolled out you know their their pride collection, which you know had some very, very questionable um components, the boycotting actually did put pressure on Target to change. So I I think that it can be valued you know, it can not be I don't want to say valuable, I think it can be effective one way or the other. Um I think also that it's almost impossible to keep up with. Yes. Like how how do I know like if I'm gonna go get a coffee? I just got a coffee before I came here. Um I don't know what that organization believes. Like I have no idea, and I'm really not all interested in finding out. I just wanted a coffee, right? And so that's that's a challenge to uh like am I but then if I do know, like if they have a sign up that says, you know, we uh we support full-term abortion, you know, like am I gonna still spend money there? The answer is probably not if they're advertising it like that. But um, but I I don't know. I mean, so if I think about um if I look at scripture and think about what scripture has to say, there's nothing in the Bible that says, uh, well, if a business supports an agenda that you don't agree with, then you know, I I don't even know, like, and that's why I think that's the challenge, is thinking what is what does the Bible have to say about it. I, you know, I think of the um I think of the passages that talk about um obviously what we know what sin is, and so sometimes there is um there is that we have to determine am I supporting sin by supporting this organization or this this company. Um I think that's an important aspect to think about uh because I don't want to I wouldn't want to do anything that is promoting sin um or causing someone else to stumble. That's another thing. Like I don't want to do something that's going to make somebody else stumble. Um so if my going to a certain place is gonna cause others to stumble, then I certainly don't want to go there. Um I think of that sometimes. Um so like when I was in Fire Academy, I was I was 20 years old. I was in Fire Academy, and um we used to go hang out on Saturdays. I was in night school, like if I did Monday through Thursday nights and all day Saturday. So after Saturday, we would all go get cleaned up and then we'd go to this bar. Um and ever and I was 20 years old, so I didn't drink. I wasn't allowed to drink, but I also didn't drink. And I was a Christian, and I was um and I was serving in um in my church, and I was, you know, I was trying to win some of these people to Jesus, and some of them follow Jesus now. Um but we used to go to this bar and I would just hang out, I would drink water. I wouldn't even drink anything, like I would drink water. Oh, yeah. Um, and these guys would drink and they'd hang out, and I'd leave there, you know, super early in the morning or whatever. And I just got to thinking like, if somebody sees me coming out of this bar, are they gonna know that I just drank water? No, are they gonna know that I am you know obviously too young to drink, and so I was not drinking, yeah, um, and that I was just there trying to build relationships and win people to Jesus. And of course they're not gonna know that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I stopped going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because um, because that was gonna that's something that could potentially cause somebody else to stumble. Now at one o'clock or two o'clock in the morning, like or whatever time it would be, there's not really anybody driving by necessarily that's going to, but but the possibility is there, and so do I want to do something that's gonna cause other people to stumble? Absolutely not, right? Um so I think that's a consideration too when you're thinking about these, you know, businesses that are supporting these um these terrible, you know, different things. And I think so. I think it depends on how vocal the company is about it. Yeah, uh, I think how I think how well known it may be. Like, I think there are times where we may have to say, you know what, uh, there's too many Christians who who that would offend if I go shop there. I'm not gonna go shop there because I don't want to cause my brother to stumble. But I also think of Jesus, and I think of how Jesus spent time with the tax collectors and the sinners, and yeah, um, and how you you can't, you know, and even Paul, like sometimes he says, Um, where he wants us to be separate, he he's talking about in the one past, I can't remember where it is, but he's talking about how um we need to separate from the he's talking about a person in the church that participates in certain behavior. Um, and he says, But I don't want you to separate from the world. He says, I want you to separate from the Christian who's doing something that's that's immoral, that's a sin, um, that won't that won't repent. But uh he's saying, but he says, I don't want you to um separate from the world because then you would have to go out of the world, and we're supposed to be in the world, and that's where the fray, you know, in the world, but not of the world, you know, that's kind of where that idea comes from. And so um, so I think that that some component at some level we have to be out there. Um, or you know, if if I know that a coffee shop, you know, if I know that somehow deep in their um in their bookkeeping practice, they're funneling money to some sort of god-awful organization that does something terrible. Um, if I just know it because I searched their bookkeeping, well, I don't think it's a big I don't think that my boycott is gonna do much. Um I think that you know going to that coffee shop and meeting people or you know, that being there as a presence and you know, meeting have it taking a meeting there with somebody else might be a better strategy than boycotting that place because then I can actually be with people, I can win to Jesus. Yeah. But I think if I walk up to the door and it says, you know, something that is completely contrary to what I believe to be God's truth, I don't know that I can, I don't know that I can in good conscience go to that place. And not because I'm trying to get them to change necessarily, because this is this is one of the things that's always that's always struck me. Like sometimes we just we want to do behavior modification and we want to get people just to change their behavior, but God's not God's not looking at our behavior. That's why he says in um Matthew, you know, he desires uh mercy and not sacrifice, like it's God God is looking for us to change our hearts, and it's our heart posture that matters. And so like I just don't I don't find all that much value in like, hey, you should act differently if you're not if there's no reason for you to act differently, you know, if you're not a believer in Jesus. Now to s to some extent. Um the further component of that would be like there are some things that are just bad for people and bad for society. So yeah, I do want you to stop doing those things that are bad for people and bad for society. You know, um and so that's that's where it's kind of like, I don't know, man. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I do want to talk about legislation at some point in the future and like you know, theonomy basically. Um good, bad, w what is it? That's that's another teaser, I suppose. But um yeah, I think I think we we talked about two almost two separate parallel tracks of like um boycotting in order to shut down the business or convince the business to change their practice, uh, but also your reputation. Like your your bar example was was a prime example because you were going there but not spending any money. Or maybe bought a coat or something else. And so like but your reputation was on the line. So you were financially you were boycotting the institution i in a way, um, but you were concerned more about your reputation. And so I think those are two parallel things. And the cop the hypothetical coffee shop example you just gave as well, of like, well, I should boycott them because they're spending money on things I don't agree with, but it's not going to be effective, so let me go continue spending money there so I can meet the people there and and build relationships and make a difference that way. And so I don't know, I just when it comes to boycotting financially in order to cause a business to change their behavior or shut down the business. Um I just I feel like I have as a I I don't know, just I have I have other avenues of making a bigger difference or a faster difference than than than boycotting. Although you're right, there are some cases where you just you ha you have to like um and I guess there there's some wisdom and discernment needed there, but uh I'm just not quite convinced that it's uh as effective of a strategy as it's made out to be sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Well that's a thing, that's even if you go back to that target example, like it changed some of the behavior, but it didn't change the stance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And then and then there's the question of like, do I you know ignorance is bliss, so like once I'm aware of something, do I have to do do something about it and boycott? Or you know, do I just wait until I'm passively aware? Do I actively seek awareness? Like w what is the filter for boycotting? Um so I don't know. I'm just maybe we didn't resolve it today.
SPEAKER_00Well, do you think do you think this might be the kind of thing that Paul is addressing when he's talking about meat sacrificed to idols?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um and when it's okay to eat the meat and and not um I suppose.
SPEAKER_00Um because if you don't know it was sacrificed to an idol, you eat it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00Without asking questions. Right. For sake of conscience.
SPEAKER_03But if you do know Correct, I guess my question is like, do do it's like the meat sacrificed to idols. Like, do I seek awareness? Like, do I ask beforehand, like, hey, was this sacrifice to an idol? Or do I just passively like well, you know, don't ask, don't tell. Like there's you know they didn't mention it, so I'm just gonna uh hope that it wasn't, you know. That that's where I think that's where my question is. I think Paul says don't ask. Okay. I don't remember.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'd have to look it up, but the what I what I'm recalling is that if it's offered to you, you just eat it. You don't say, Hey, wait a second, was this sacrificed to an idol? Because he's saying ultimately an idol is nothing anyway, so what does it matter?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but once you do know, if they're like, hey, got this meat from the market or sacrificed to idols, you're like, oh, not gonna eat it.
SPEAKER_03That might be then I'll have to look it up. That because that might be then the the text that I'm looking for on this topic, because that's the question for me is awareness and do I seek it or do I just receive it? And when I receive it, then I do something. Um that might be what I'm looking for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I obviously I don't know that that can solve every single dilemma. I think there's I just think there's gotta be so much um so much wisdom. Because you know, even in like there's some things that you can do that would be a sin because you have a it would be violating your conscience, but I can do them and it not be a sin because I don't have a conviction or whatever in that that that way, you know.
SPEAKER_03That is true.
SPEAKER_00Um kind of like what James talks about. Um and you know, I think of the passage all the time to him who knows to do right and doesn't do it is sin, even so like there so like I think that even as individual Christians, we can't throw out a blanket like um everybody should boycott this organization or this company because we just I don't know, we just can't speak to And then you're you're not a good Christian if you don't.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00Which I always I never really liked that. Hannah still shops at Target, so I mean my whole family still shops at Target. I I don't know that I've ever actually taken place taken part of a boycott. It's too much to manage. That's correct. That's I just I got a lot going on.
SPEAKER_03Which is a pragmatic approach, but it's also I don't know, it just it is too much to manage.
SPEAKER_00Um I mean there I guess that's not true. I guess there's some places that I certainly would not go. Um I can't think of them off the top of my head, but I mean, besides the obviously immoral places, like you know, adult entertainment type places. Of course.
SPEAKER_03But there's even like it's not just the places you wouldn't go, but like, should I stop ordering stuff off Amazon? You know, should you know there's what about this brand of shirt I ordered on Amazon? Is that brand, you know, it's you you could go down all kinds of uh all kinds of rabbit trails, um finding reasons to boycott or not boycott certain companies.
SPEAKER_00Like, do they use rabbits in testing their product? Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, rabbit trails. Did a rabbit wear this shirt first?
SPEAKER_00Is this shirt made out of rabbit? Uh yeah, that's true. I mean, yeah, I've yeah, you don't know. Um I mean you you drive an electric car, you're probably participating in slavery. Potentially, yeah, actually though. Yeah, yeah. So there's yeah, there's there's a there are a lot of uh lot of questions. Yeah. Not a lot of answers. I think I think it just has to be like that Christians have to use wisdom and discernment, and um and we really should try not to judge each other. There's that too. Oh yeah. Based on what we are or aren't doing. And I think a Christian who's flippantly sinning, obviously we are called to judge. That's where people misquote that, you know, judge not lest you may not judge. Like that's not what I was talking about. Um, because we are supposed to judge each other within the church. If a Christian is flippantly sinning, yeah, I mean, we should call that out. But somebody just like, you know, just shopping a target. Like, I mean, it's a wisdom thing. We I don't think we need a judge.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that Matthew 7 text, I preached it in the fall. It was a hard one to preach, um, just to be clear on it, like to communicate it clearly, but uh Matt or Jesus rather, Jesus does say, Judge not lest ye be judged, but then he goes on to say, remove the speck from your brother's eye. Of course, you have to remove the log first, but you're giving you you're given something to do. Like you're supposed to notice specks in your brother's eye and go get them out. And so, like, how does that immediately follow judge not? Well, it they they they do go together. Um, but it that you're right, that is often um misapplied, that verse.
SPEAKER_00So absolutely. All right, hot takes?
SPEAKER_03I have some.
SPEAKER_00Some? I have a lot usually, so I have to always have to narrow it down to just one. Yeah. But here's what I got for today. Uh, we often talk about um drivers who use excessive speed being dangerous. But I think that drivers who use inadequate speed are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous.
SPEAKER_03Ooh. I don't know if that's so much of a hot take, it's just uh people need to think about that more. They might agree with it if they just thought about it. Okay. Um a hot take is that uh uh shopping malls will be obsolete uh within the decade. Um with it within the next 10 years, I should say. Um so yeah, they they will no longer they all the existing ones will be torn down or turned into apartments or office buildings or things like that.
SPEAKER_00So you don't think our Lake Square mall is making a comeback? Nope, nope.
SPEAKER_03Never.
SPEAKER_00It is uh within a decade, it's soon.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I've been saying within 10 years for like five years now, so I guess I should say within five years. So that is one of my hot takes.
SPEAKER_00Well, I guess we'll uh maybe we'll get to episode 999 before it happens. I don't know. We'll see. All right. Well, this has been the Practical Matters podcast with Garrett Haywood and Kevin Saxton, and we do believe that making theology practical matters. It does. See you the next time. See you.