PM004 Education, Self Defense, & Legislation

Dr. Saxton's Dissertation

Dr. Haywood's Project

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Greetings and welcome to the Practical Matters podcast, where we believe that making theology practical matters. I'm Kevin Saxton. This is Garrett Haywood. And we're here for episode 004.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Double four.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Double four. Last time we told folks about our family, and if you've read our description, you know that both Garrett and I are doctors. So tell us about your doctorate, Pastor Garrett.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Well, uh some would say I'm a chiropractor. But uh I yes, I I have a doctor of ministry from uh Liberty University. So um my doctorate's uh my project's sitting right over there. We're in my office today. Um my focus was on Christian leadership development, and my uh project um was a study of the internship program at Family Church, First Baptist Church, West Palm Beach, and uh learning from that program, how to improve that program, but ultimately principles that uh Christian leaders and local churches and nonprofits could use uh to develop Christian leaders uh anywhere. So uh that was the kind of the general topic of the of the doctorate and then the specific study was was in that area. So uh I enjoyed it a lot.

unknown 1:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah. So Liberty University is where you have that, and before that you were at Palme Gelani University?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Um yes, so I did a a Bachelor of Arts um in biblical and theological studies at PBA, and then I technically, I don't want to misspeak, I only have one master's, um, but I did the work of two masters to uh to get that one master's. So I have an MDiv MBA joint degree. So I did all the coursework for the all the core coursework for the MDiv and used my MDiv electives to take MBA core courses, and then I did all the MBA core courses and used those electives to take MDiv core courses, and so they kind of overlapped a little bit uh to create uh one masters, but um yeah, a lot of theological training and business training uh at the graduate level before doing my uh doctorate online with Liberty.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

So that's one of the biggest and best online programs in the country.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I would highly recommend it. We're not sponsored by Liberty yet, but uh I would I would highly recommend it. We are both alumni. Yes, that's right. That's right. Both alums, as it were. They have a obviously great uh collegiate online education, but they also have um uh Liberty University Online Academy, an online K-12 school, where my daughter will be starting uh kindergarten uh next month. So I'm very excited about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I um I did get, you know, I I became a firefighter right out of high school, um, but I also went to college at Palm Beach Community College, which is now Palm Beach State College. I got an associate degree there in EMS or emergency medical services, and I got an associate degree and just transfer degree and transferred to Palm Beach Atlantic, got a bachelor's degree in ministry, went to seminary at Liberty Seminary, got a Master of Arts and Religion, which is like the associate's degree of master's degrees, um, and then got my Master of Divinity after that, and then it took one year off trying to figure out what I was gonna do, almost joined the Army, and instead went and got my PhD from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville in a modular program. So I spent a lot of time going back and forth between South Florida and um South Florida in Louisville, Kentucky. It started that program with one kid, ended that program with six kids and one on the way. So it was no joke trying to juggle all that, working two full-time jobs, you know, as a pastor and as a firefighter. So a lot of fun. But my uh my dissertation, which is uh is easily findable um online, is uh it was a project, it was a not a project, it was uh it was an empirical study. So I uh studied baptism ratios and family ministry engagement in the Southern Baptist Convention, and so my dissertation is actually applicable to the entire Southern Baptist Convention. I mean, research is old after um after ten years, so I graduated in 2017.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

So we got one more year.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

One more year of my of my research being valid or whatever about being current. Um but uh graduated with my PhD in leadership after finishing that dissertation and have a minor in family ministry, higher ed. Um and so that makes me a doctor that can't help you.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Ditto, yep. Um but your I remember after your defense you still needed some sources, and I I remember helping you like find some of those final sources to get it get it passed and graduate, and but your findings were um see if I can remember this right. So some would say uh that if you emphasize family ministry, that decreases your baptisms because um it's kind of an internal focus. But your your findings were not that emphasizing family ministry increases baptisms, but you also found that it didn't decrease them. Right. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Right. Okay. Yeah, so in the premise what the premise the or the question that I was trying to or the critique really that I was trying to answer was the critique that if you engage in or you focus in family ministry, family ministry being um the belief that parents are called to be the primary disciple makers in the lives of their kids, something we kind of talked about last last podcast, um, that that would that's an internal focus and it makes it so that people aren't evangelistic. Um whereas I would I would say it would be the opposite. If you're doing that well, then those children are even evangelistic, so you should have a more evangelistic church. Um what I found it was all inconclusive. There were about 10 churches that I called exemplary churches that were doing both very well. Um and I and then their baptism ratios, I mean, I got that from their their annual, you know, their ACP, their annual church report. So like it it's objective information, you know, like it's what actually happened. Um so it's not like they were reporting their own, you know, their own numbers. Um, and that was a lot of work. 600 something churches.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Oh, I bet.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, yeah. But uh I found out of 600 something churches, 127 of them, I still remember that number clearly, 127 of them baptized zero people in the prior year.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

What?

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah, which means that they don't have a baptism ratio because they baptized zero people, and that was heartbreaking. And that was churches all the way from you know just a a handful of of church attenders or members all the way up to churches that had hundreds of members. Wow. And they're baptizing zero people. So I I think that the bigger question is not um, you know, a squabble over whether we try and teach parents to disciple their kids. I mean the bigger question is why are we not reaching people with the gospel of Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So agreed. That was kind of one of the biggest findings there. One of the saddest findings. Yeah. Because you know, that's 20%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Wow. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, um, we were uh we were talking last time, we gave a little teaser for a future uh topic. I'm gonna steal one of those topics.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Oh no, so was I.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Um, it depends on which one you're gonna steal. You know, the one I'm stealing, I'm picking, I'm piggybacking off of uh kind of what Christian parents should be doing with their children. Um and so I I'm interested in the school, the school choice conversation. So um so as a Christian parent, how do I decide where my kid goes to school? And is that an important decision?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Um yeah, great questions. So I think again, always trying to draw things back to uh the scriptures um uh in in in this podcast. Uh I think of Matthew 22, uh, where we are uh called to love the Lord uh with all that we are, but specifically with all of our minds. And uh of course uh Deuteronomy chapter six, where um you know parents are told to uh teach their children um when they wake up, when they go to bed, as they're traveling, and as they're eating, in in four kind of key moments, uh really moments that only parents share with those those young hearts. And so um, you know, teaching children to uh love the Lord with all their minds, to develop their minds is important for for people of all ages, but including children. But when it comes to children, parents should be the ones doing doing that teaching. So it sounds like I'm making a case for homeschooling. I'm not sure that I necessarily am, just a case for parents to take the education of their children seriously. Um so does it matter? Yeah, it matters greatly. Um we are um so this will be less biblical, more just a personal story. We've chosen to homeschool. My oldest is starting kindergarten. We talked about our families last week. We chose to homeschool just because uh she just turned five two weeks ago, and she used to go to preschool from nine to one Monday through Thursday, and then she was gonna go to kindergarten from eight to three Monday through Friday. And I was just like, I don't know that a five-year-old needs a full-time job. And so our decision to homeschool was kind of uh it was less convictional and more practical. Um and we might actually we we are planning on you know around sixth grade sending her to school, um, uh to first academy in particular, um, as she's 12 and not five and could sustain physically uh Monday through Friday. Yes, right, go Eagles. Fly Eagles fly. Um Monday to Friday, eight to three. So uh we are personally uh homeschooling and have plans to homeschool our three children for for their younger years and then send them to First Academy. Um but in terms of like is it an important decision? It's a very important decision for um for parents to consider. And I would um so I I hate to give too much personal anecdote with all this, but I grew up I went to public school all the way through uh as a child. Um my mom homeschooled my sisters, and I was given the option to be homeschooled, and I said no, thank you. Not because I don't love my mom, I love hanging out with my mom, but I just wanted I wanted to play basketball and I wanted to go to homecoming and I wanted to I just wanted to go to public school. Um I think public school, even I'm not that old, but even since I graduated has changed drastically. And I'm not sure that um I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. I'm not sure that public school is a good option for Christian parents. Um and that's probably an over-generalization because every school district is different, every school is different in some ways, but um in a lot of ways I would struggle to I would struggle to send my kids to public school today. Um now I say that with church members uh who are right down the hall right now that are public school teachers, and so uh I'm grateful for the the way that they're living on mission in that field. But um to me the decision is probably between a good private Christian school and uh homeschooling if if if able to. So um those are my thoughts. I don't know if I answered your question.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

But well yeah, I mean um I I think it I I mean I I agree with you. I think it's a very important decision that we have to make. We can't just I don't I just don't I think everything we do we have to have a reason for doing. I I don't think that as a Christian I should just be going with the flow of life. You know, I think that I should be thinking about things very, very carefully and very biblically, biblically. And if there's something that the Bible has to say about it, then I should be, I should look at that that the Bible has to say about it. I mean the thing that you highlighted that is very clear is the Bible gives parents the the uh the task of discipling their kids. And um the thing that we have to be aware of when we look around at the culture, the the um I love how the Bible tells us to be um wise as serpents and harmless as doves. You know, so like we we have to be wise about what's happening around us, and when you look at the way that um that schools are are run, like it's it can be it could be very, very challenging. And that that's not that doesn't mean that it's just because a school is a Christian school that it's a valuable option either. Um you have to know what you're doing and what you're getting into. And I always liked what uh what again our to quit to quote our good friend Pastor Jimmy Um Scrogans at Family Church in West Palm, he he would always say that um for his eight kids that each uh each child's schooling is a child-by-child, year-by-year decision. And I I think that's accurate. Like I think we have to think about it. Like we, you know, just because we did it last year, does that mean that it's gonna be the best thing for this year? It may or may not. And so I as a result of you know, just thinking through that, like my kids, I started them all in a in a great Christian school um down in South Florida. Um, but then we moved too far away from that school to commute every day, uh, and we ended up homeschooling uh for a year. That didn't really work out all that well, even though I was homeschooled. It just um there was just too much going on in our family and too many of our kids that were not willing to do anything. You know, it was mom and dad that were trying to get them to do it. Um that that's the way I got I actually value my homeschool education from when I was younger because my parents homeschooled us, not because of cultural reasons necessarily, but because of educational reasons. They felt like they were both my mom was a teacher. Um, my dad was someone who's highly educated, and so like they were they felt like they could do a better job. And I think that in that particular instance that they for most of us that they did. I mean, all of my brothers have college degrees. Um, not that that's necessarily a indicator, but you know, my older brother is a isn't a very accomplished attorney. Um I have a an advanced degree, a terminal degree. Um, my brothers do very well, my other two younger brothers do very well in what they do, and it's because our parents taught us how to learn. And so that's that's what made it possible for me to get the education that I do have, is because my parents made us learn how to learn. And it was more less like, hey, them teaching us, it was more like, hey, this is your this is what you have to accomplish today, go figure it out. And we had to go figure it out, and um that that was not gonna work with kids, our kids when we brought them to homeschool. And so that was that was a bit of a challenge. Um so the following year, we actually ended up sending five of our kids to public school um to one of the schools that was highest rated in the county, and actually one of the higher-rated schools in the state, and um that was a relatively good experience. Um, but even there, like there was a teacher, my I have my twins were in third grade at the time, um, and they were inviting a f they were inviting a classmate to church, and they were told by their teacher that they're not allowed to do that in her classroom.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

And it wasn't like they were standing up and preaching the gospel message, although I would be proud of them if they did, it was they were inviting a friend to church. And so that that teacher actually broke the law, um, because you can't do that. Which uh well, you don't have to quote the statute, but like that's that's legislated.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

She she can't she can't.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

I mean, it's that's that's religious suppression. Like you can't do that, you can't prevent a child from talking about um it's this is it's across the books, you know, across the across the board in in any sort of academic matter. You can't tell someone you may not talk about that in my you know my classroom or whatever. Like it's it's religious freedom, that's suppression of religion. It goes all the way back to the the bill of rights, really. I mean um she I mean she is not allowed to stand up and you know and like profess her, you know, without having without being prompted to stand up and and profess her beliefs, um, although that's exactly what happens um in most cases. It's just that it's not Christian beliefs, it's usually the opposite of Christian beliefs. Correct. Um but if someone asked her and she were a Christian, she would be able to respond to their questions. Like that's the way that I mean that's the way the that the schools operate, and that's that's the way that the that has been interpreted in the law, the way I understand it. So um, so even though we were one of the best public schools, we had what I would consider to be, I mean it's a good experience for my students, my my kids, they still talk about it. Yeah, um, but that's not the kind of nurturing that I'm looking for in my kids. But um there would, I think there would be a well after to finish it off. Well, after that, my kids went to a private school and the Christian school where my wife was teaching at the time down there, and now they go to Christian school here. But um, but if I had a kid that were to tell me, and I I know a kid like this, he went his his mom was teaching at first academy, um, and this boy finished ninth grade and he said, you know, I want to go to uh the local high school um because I have all these kids that I was connected with when I was at public school and middle school, and I really want them to know Jesus. And so she took him out of first academy and put him in in the high school up the road, and um, and I think that was a very wise decision.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Um, because he's going there with a with a purpose. He's going there for the purpose of trying to reach his friends for Jesus, and he was he's a great kid, a talented athlete. Um, I think that was a a tremendous decision. So I think that I think there really is a child-by-child decision. And if I had a child come and ask me some very, you know, very specifically why they may want to do this different thing, or if my wife looked at it and say, Hey, we have a child that needs different resources than they're receiving here, um, there may be an option for us to do that. But I I do think that you are you're rolling the dice when it comes to public school.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Um, if you know, I heard a lot of people like, oh, this school is so great, there's so many great teachers, but like, yeah, but what if you get that one that's not that you know is indoctrinating your child in a different way? You know, it's it's a gamble. And my my wife taught public school for a long time, and I would she's the kind of teacher that I would want my kids to have. Yeah, and there were other teachers in her school that were teachers that I would want my kids to have. And they were teachers in her school that I would be horrified if my kids had them. And so I I think that it's it's just a such a delicate decision that has to be made because we are called to to shepherd our children and to raise our children to know and to love Jesus. And um I think sometimes public school can work against that. I think sometimes it can work for it. Yeah, but I think in a lot of cases it can work against it.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, I guess uh just to be clear, like, I I don't think I'm maybe you are, I don't think I'm quite ready to say like Christians cannot teach in public school and Christians cannot send their kids to public school. I don't think I'm quite there yet. I don't know that Hannah and I ever will personally um it it'd be a it'd be a big struggle for us. We we would need a compelling reason. Like if Gunnar grew up and he was that ninth grader you just referenced, that's like, Dad, I want to go reach the football team for Jesus. Like, okay, we can talk about that. Um but we we would struggle greatly to send our children to public school. I don't think that means Christians can't teach or administrate or send their children to public school. Just be very careful today, in today's day and age. Um we we also around here we have a like the villages charter school is yet another option in this area that's not available everywhere. Uh that's a public school that basically functions like a private school to oversimplify it. Um you have to work for the villages to to send your kid there, which I don't and Hannah doesn't, so we we don't have that option, but that's a great that's a great option. But I think principally speaking, it's our duty as parents to uh teach our children, and we may do that personally by homeschooling, or we may choose a partner in that. Um but when choosing a partner in that, meaning a private school or a public school or a charter school or whatever, uh just choose carefully. Um it's it's ultimately your your responsibility as the parent to to to choose carefully in that in that effort.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I mean, I would I would a hundred percent lump a charter school in with public school. Would you a hundred percent. Okay. Yeah, I I don't think that there's that there's a substantial difference.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

I I think that it it essentially just changes the uh the student demographic in a way.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Um Definitely, yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

But I don't but I don't think that it changes the anything else, like philosophically. Um in both the in both the uh the faculty and the students. Because you're gonna have Christian too school teachers at a lot of public schools.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Um and I because I think that that's that's something, you know, teaching the next generation is something that seems like a lot of Christians are are called to and are interested in. And I think that's a great ministry field um for Christians is is serving in the public school. I mean, my wife, like that was her ministry, was serving those kids, serving those babies. She taught kindergarten. Um so I think um so I think that it's more I think that you'd be more likely to say, yeah, let me go teach in the public school as a Christian, than I would be to say, yeah, let me go send my kids to the public school as a Christian. I would agree with that, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

So for sure. So I don't know that we resolved it, but um, no, because I don't think you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

I don't think you can resolve it. I mean true. Because I because you have to resolve it for your family, and I have to resolve it for my family, and uh we may resolve that in different ways. In fact, we have resolved that in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Um and both of those ways I think are appropriate and beautiful. Like I I don't think that you know, I have reasons for why I'm doing what I'm doing, you have reasons for doing what you're doing, you're you're following your convictions, I'm following my convictions. Um and and I think it's I think it's all good. I think it's all great. And everybody that's listening, when they have children, if they have children, are gonna have to make that are gonna have to resolve that on their own. Um, I think that the most important thing is knowing that you have to resolve it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah. I yeah, I think what you said earlier was wise about don't just don't just go with the flow or make assumptions like think critically about the educational decision. I think is is wise. Um yeah. Um you've mentioned no schooling in the past. You have any thoughts on no schooling?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah. I I knew some friends that no schooled and I um and they had some of the best kids that I've ever met in my life. Um so no schooling would be like where you don't necessarily like, you know, most times when somebody's homeschooling, they'll you know, I'm gonna get all the curriculum for kindergarten and then I'm gonna go curriculum for first grade and I'm gonna teach this subject and that subject. Right. Um, and no a no schooler would be like, we're gonna tell the kids, we're gonna teach the kids what they want to learn, and we're gonna put them in educational opportunities all around them. Um and so a no schooler would be like today. We're baking, or you know, today we're um we're going on a hike and we're gonna learn about the flora and the fauna, you know, whatever it may be, and they're gonna teach them along the way. No schoolers generally do eventually put their child in school, um, some level of schooling. I mean, mostly the I would guess they stay homeschooled, but like they they eventually put their child into some sort of more um what's the word, organized educational system, like a you know, virtual school or something like that. Um, but they usually don't do it until a kids at middle school. And the argument is that a child in sixth grade can learn everything that the child in kindergarten through fifth grade learned in about a month. And academically, like, and I know that there's probably a lot of educators out there that are like that would cringe at me saying this, but like academically, like the content they 100% can. I mean, that's what you're doing at the beginning of most school years anyway, um, in those primary grades is rehearsing what they learned from kindergarten on. So, yes, they have been building on those, they call it scaffolding, you know, they have been scaffolding all that, they have been building on that. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't just flat out learn a new skill when you're 12 years old and or learn new content when you're 12 years old. Um, because most of these kids are not necessarily retaining it anyway. Um it's stretching that muscle of learning, that brain mass. So as long as you're doing that, um, and not, you know, some people will use no school as an ex as an excuse to you know just let their kid play video games and like not have to, and it's a laziness thing, more like they're gonna and I knew kids like that when I was homeschooled. Or I was like, man, this kid doesn't even like this kid's in middle school or whatever and has no idea how to read. Um and sometimes that happens in no schoolers. I have a fourth grader doesn't know how to read, and like, are they taking care of their kid or doing the right thing? But then they meet that kid as a seventh grader or eighth grader, and it's the best writer with the best penmanship, with the best communication skills, and it's because their parents stretched that muscle differently and they gave them life experience and they built character into them. And so you end up with an eighth grader who's the kid you want around your kids, and the kid that you want. Like I, the one family that we knew, just an amazing family. Like they were our babysitters, like they were the people that if we needed somebody to stay with our kids, those are the people we're gonna put with our kids because they knew how to do it. Like they had a bunch of brothers and sisters, and they had the highest character, and they still do they're still just great people. Now, most of them are adults now, and they're just great people. Um, and it's because their parents intentionally taught them character and life when they were young and worried about the academics when they're in middle school.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

And also they all graduate college and they all get good jobs, and that you know, there's nothing there's nothing that you would look at now in their life and be like, oh, obviously this kid didn't go to school in elementary school.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

So I in some ways I think that it can work.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

But in some ways I think it's an excuse too.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

So interesting. I don't know why hedge. I don't think we will engage with it, but um it it's an interesting interesting topic. So I I didn't do it. Um my so uh I was also going to talk about or ask you about education, but I have so I think I I think I still will, because uh since we're on the topic, I have a slightly different angle. Um I think your original question was how how should parents think about education? Is that right? Or or should they? Should they?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

So my question is um uh perhaps a step back even from that, uh, what is it? What what is education and w what is the target? Like what are we aiming at? Like as Christian parents think about education, what is the the goal that we're aiming for when my child is 18? Um and and so how as I think about it, what's the best avenue to help my child achieve that goal? Does that make sense? Yeah. So what is it, what are we aiming for as we think about education?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah, I I think that's a great question because I I I like asking the why question, and that is kind of the why question because we can say like how here's how you decide, or how we talk about what school our kid's gonna go to, but like why, why would you even do that? I think I think it's a great thing to ask. I love asking the why question. Um, and I think I think you have to look at like as a whole child that's going to be a whole adult, you have to look at what do I want this adult child to be able to accomplish because because that determines what success is, right? I mean, we we a lot of times will be like, I want my kid to be successful. And every one of us we say that could potentially mean something different. And the common composite um sketch of uh of success in the world is not actually probably what a Christian should be aiming for. Um where it's both basically just get get money, get things.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

And so like the college education even is aimed at get money, get things, like how can I get the best job so I can have the best things so that I can be the richest possible or whatever, and have the most, you know, influence, whatever, whatever it may be, but it's it's generally boils down to get money, get things. Um which then like the family becomes like a questionable part of that, even like you know, the like do they get married? Like, is that because that's why marriages have now the the average age of first marriage is so high in the 20s, yes. Um, which is honestly a shame, um, because you're missing out on one of the best things that life has to offer, which is a spouse and children. Like, I think that is the best gift that life has, the best common grace in the world is marriage and children. Um so I think you're missing out on that when you've prioritized something else. So I think so it's a great question. It really is a great question to look at the why or what is it that we're actually trying to accomplish and why are we trying to accomplish it? Um, and I think I think that we I mean we have to answer it biblically, right? Like it's it's ra raise them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Um, it's that's the that's that's Paul talking about it. But like that's what we should be doing with our kids, is raising them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. How can I raise these children so that they can that they love Jesus the most? And that's the most important thing. So everything else should be should be supporting that goal. Like, so I'm going to go on vacation with my family because I want to spend time with them because I'm trying to raise them up in the fear and dimension of the Lord. I'm going to choose the school that I'm going to choose because it's going to work best for the my overall goal of raising them up in the fear and instruction of the Lord, the fear, the fear and the knowledge of the Lord. And so everything has to be subservient to that goal. Um, I think that there's also an aspect of like we can't like we can't set our kids back in a way. Um, so there there is like a pressure of our kids have to be able to read and write and communicate so they can you know get a job and contribute to society. Um But again, that is also so that then they can accomplish the same goal of raising them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. So I'm trying to I'm trying to raise my kids for that purpose, and I'm trying to raise them so that they can also accomplish that purpose for their kids. Yeah, and so the best way to do that is I mean, they they gotta be able to accomplish these skills, their commission commisure, I can never say that word, commiserate.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Commiserate.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Yeah, commiserate. I don't know. Anyways, with their um that's part of my homeschooling still. Like I learned words by reading a lot. And so like I can so I can't always pronounce them correctly. But so like even in my classroom, like kids will be like uh trying to pronounce a Bible name, and I'm like, hey, in my classroom, you can say a Bible name any way you want. Like, I'm not gonna correct you because I I who knows, like just yeah, you want to read Abraham as Abraham, whatever. I whatever, like I it doesn't matter to me. Um we we uh we're all looking at the same thing on the page, so like the kids that know know and the kids that don't don't know, who cares? But anyways, um but like we we have to raise our kids with the skill level that they need to have to be able to accomplish that goal. So like they've got to be able to get a job. That's really important. Um you have to be able to support your family. Um they they've gotta be able to uh be able to participate in society, and so in order for them then to raise their kids in the fair dimension of the Lord. And so, what education do I need to get them to that point? That does not mean that they have to be the best and the brightest student. If they're not the best and the brightest student, they've that I've failed or they failed. Right. Um, it also does not mean they have to go to college. It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that graduate high school, honestly. It just means that they um have to be able to have those skills because there's a lot of people out there who are successful who didn't go to college, who didn't, you know, successful in terms of again, success in is relative, obviously, but successful in terms of they have a family and they're raising their kids to know and to love Jesus. That could be the military, that could be, you know, something completely different. Um as long as it's not jail. I mean, I'm or the club, I'm pretty sure like that's it's on, you know, it's on course. But um, I also think I think we actually sell our this is like an aside, but I think we sell our kids short a lot because we think, oh, what do they need to do know by the time they're 18? And a lot of what kids need to know by their 18 and what they do know by the time they're 18, they probably couldn't know by the time they're 14. And so we like I think we we we have like drug out adolescence, which adolescence is a 19th-century term. It's like we um we we've just drugged that out. It's like where kids used to graduate law school at like 16 years old. Um so a kid is capable of that, and so what are we like actually giving our kids the like as much as they are capable of handling? Um, I know I have a student, she's gonna be a senior this year. She's the most impressive student I've ever met in my entire life. This girl is in the running for valedictorian of her class. She so she's a straight A student, she has an incredible GPA. She's gonna graduate with an associate's degree because she's dual enrolled and gone to school full-time at high school the whole time. Um, she is our cheerleading captain. She is um, she has a job that she is a uh she's a like a shift manager at her job where she um works a lot. And again, she is gonna graduate at the top of her class. Like, and she's a nice kid. Like she's somebody you want to be around. She's nice, she's funny, she's fun, she'll volunteer, she'll do, she has hundred or plus conserved community service out. I mean, I imagine she has more than that because that's what's the bare minimum. So I imagine she probably has a couple hundred. Um, but this girl is, you know, and obviously she's a bit of a an outlier, but like she's showing what capabilities we really have. Whereas most kids nowadays don't have a job, struggle at school, and you know, may maybe they play a sport half, you know, half-heartedly. Yeah. Um I think that more kids are probably more capable like the first than the latter, but we treat most of them like the latter.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

We do. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

And I think that that is that is problematic. And I think that probably it's because we're not looking at the end goal of what we're trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Which is to raise our kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Amen. So I guess like uh which that is a that is the answer. Um but I I guess we just we we being uh American culture, I suppose is the subject of we American culture just throws the word education around quite a bit. Like we have a department of education. Well a department of what? Or we have a you know, he needs to go or she needs to go get an education. Well, what are they going to get? Or, you know, this this uh city is struggling because of a lack of education. A lack of what? Like we just we throw the word around a lot. It's like w perhaps they're there are two different things. Like what is how should a Christian think about education as they're thinking about it for their children, and what does society mean when they use that word? But um we just kind of throw it around like everybody knows what we're talking about, but we might be talking past each other. I guess I guess is why I ask the question.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

No, that's a that's a great point, because I mean I I would think that education is any sort of learning. We're talking formal education. Formal education will be classroom education where you're learning, you know, in a didactic type way, most likely, or Socratic one of the you know, something. But um But there's all there is more aspects to that. That's the no-schooler. The no-schooler is not not educating their child, there's educating their child differently. And so they're still teaching them, they're still there's still teaching and learning happening. It's just not formal, it's not happening in a classroom, it's not happening according to a curriculum. It's still education because there's still learning happening, and education being just the the transfer of education or transfer of information from person to person, I think is the is a simple way to define. I'm sure there's a textbook definition for it, but I think that that's what education is. So that you know, when I when I started at the fire department, I was 20 years old, and um I had I didn't have an associate's degree yet, but I had some college classes, I had a high school diploma, and I had been the EMT school, paramedic school, and fire academy. So I had graduated from high school and then graduated from three academies. Um so I had some education, uh, and I was at the top of all my classes. Like, so I had I had the formal education, but my partner used to tell me all the time, he used to drive me crazy. He used to tell me all the time, he'd be like, Um, he'd be like, Man, Kevin, this guy was old enough to be my dad. And then some kind of times we could show up on calls and kids would be like, Is that your dad? Um, because I'm I'm as a kid, I was 20 years old. Um, and he'd be like, you know, you have no life experience. He's like, you really will do better at this job once you understand life a little bit more. And so like he used to be like, we'd drive down the street and I'd see a school. I for whatever reason I've always been like kind of um interested in school buses. I think they kind of look cool. I don't know. I just I just like it's weird enough, but like I like school buses. Like and so I'd be like, oh man, look at that school bus. That's a it was you know, this was 2003, so I'd be like, that's a 2002 Bluebird rear engine. And he'd be like, You are the weirdest kid.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

We've known each other for a long time. I've never heard this before.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah, yeah. I used to I actually, when I was actually by that point, I had my driver's my school bus driver's license by the time I was 20, because I was driving a school bus for the school that I went to.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Is this the same license that would allow you to drive uh like a ladder truck or something?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Well, no, ladder that's the funny thing is that you don't actually have to have a different license to drive a fire truck.

unknown 35:58

What?

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah, you just have to have the training.

unknown 36:01

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

So there's no certification. I mean, there's a certification, but not all departments even require the certification.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

But you don't have to get like a CDL like to drive a bus kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

No, but I had one when I started the fire department because I drove school bus.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

So I had a CDL, I could drive with air brakes, a passenger endorsement, I had all of it. I used to drive the bus for field trips and stuff and sporting events.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Oh, this is my favorite podcast episode so far.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

This is this is awesome. So, but he what he would say to me all the time is he'd be like, Man, most guys your age, we're driving down the road and they're just looking at girls. And he's like, You're driving down the road and looking at school buses. What is wrong with you? He's like, You have no life experience. Um, I was like, I don't know, I just like school buses. I don't know why. Just do. But um, maybe it's because I was homeschooled, you know. It's like, I don't know. I did ride the school bus when I went to public school though. So I rode the school bus home, and that was one of the joys of my life was riding that school bus. I don't know. Anyways, um, but what I learned by the time I graduated, but graduated by the time I retired from the fire department, I was there 20 and a half years. Um, by the time I retired, I knew exactly what he was talking about. And he was right. I had no life experience, and I had to get an education, not just because while while I was there, I also went and got a bunch of other formal education, but like I had to learn how to interact with people. I had to learn how you know people that I didn't know. I learned to learn how to um calm a scene down that was chaotic. I had to learn how to do things methodically so that I didn't miss anything. I mean, there were a lot of things that I had to learn, and that was an education. Wasn't formal, but it was an education. Um, and I think that's the same, the same idea across the board. Like that's what education is, is it's it's gaining information.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Well, I think you can um I think that's wise, but I also think you can have all those experiences without gaining the education from them because you don't stop to think about what you've experienced. It's it's the the phrase that you and I are familiar with, reflective learning. Like you have to stop and do some reflective learning on the experiences you've had. Otherwise they're they're just gonna be experiences that never transform into education. And I think you probably did that over your 20 years as you thought about what you experienced and then 100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

And so I mean a lot of that was probably because of my homeschooling experience as a child. Because I had to learn how to learn. And so I and then a lot of it is because the fire department, um, the fire service in general will kind of thrust that upon you. Like, because after we have after action reviews, and we had you know, there's times where you know you run a call and somebody pulls you along, pulls you aside, is like, hey man, like I don't know what you were doing back there, but like don't ever do it again. Like there, you know, this is the way it needs to be done, and so you can be like, oh wow, I really messed that up. Like, um, so the fire the fire service is good about it because like our lives depend on it.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Um but yeah, you're right, like you have to know how to take those experiences, so which means you either need somebody in your life that's helping you do it, yes, or you have to have learned those skills before you get there.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

It's the classic, like if you don't do any reflective learning, you'll look at a guy that has or girl that has 20 years of experience, but really they've had one year of experience 20 times in a row. Because they they haven't grown at all from their experiences. Um you've got to stop and do some reflective learning, but helpful on the topic of education. So I suppose that was one from you, one from me so far. So it's uh it's back to you. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Uh like ping pong. What do you think about ping pong? No, just kidding. I love I love table tennis. But anyways, I have a table here. You want to play? I got smoked yesterday by a student. Anyways, um I uh my next question is I'm completely shifting gears, but what should a cr how should a Christian think about self-defense?

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Oh um I do have thoughts on this. Um it's okay. So I um I think that uh to to take it back to the Bible, so um in Exodus 20, one of the commandments is thou shalt not murder. Um but that commandment is not thou shalt not kill.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

There is a difference, there's a significant difference. And um I also think another scripture that's often referenced in this conversation is Matthew 5, turn the other cheek. Um I I I would not see that as a a prohibition against uh self-defense. So um i I my position is like if you come into my home to steal my television and I'm not home, just take my television. But like when it comes to my family, um I will engage in self-defense. So I'm not I'm not a pacifist in that regard. Um I I do hold a position that uh uh Christians have the right to uh defend themselves and specifically defend their their families. Um I would I would find it problematic for for a man to stand by while his wife and children are assaulted. Um a Christian man that is. Um and so I am in support of self-defense. I've also had uh debates with other Christian men who see it differently from me. And we just kind of left the debate with, you know, he he said, Um, well, if you're really following you know Jesus closely, if you're walking closely with Jesus, then you'll know what to do in that moment. And I'm like, yeah, I will. I'm gonna kill the guy. Like it's if you're if you're trying to harm my family. And so um I don't know, that maybe maybe that's too strong of a stance or too strong of a langu too strong of a language, but I I kinda don't think so because it's my wife and kids. And so um but there's a difference between property and people. Um and uh property I'd probably react differently than people, but when it comes to people, um I I uh personally will stand up and defend people. So thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 41:58

I mean I I generally hold the same stance. The thing that I always think about, um and well to add to the scriptures, you know, there the lamentations. Yeah, three a time. Is it lamentations or is it Ecclesiastes? It's Ecclesiastes. No Lamentation. I don't know, a time to kill and a time to heal. Um sounds like Ecclesiastes. It sounds like Ecclesiastes, but like I don't know. I I get them mixed up because at one point I had memorized a portion of Lamentations three and I don't remember. But anyways, but there is obviously there's a list of a time for this, a time for that, a time for this. But one of them is a time to kill and a time to heal. Um But then I think about like what about Jim Elliott? You know, like Jim Elliott showed up on an island in an airplane and he got killed. Should he have fought back?

SPEAKER_00 42:46

No. I I don't think so. Um I think that's a very unique situation. Like Jim Elliott was not asleep in his home with his wife and children, and then someone invaded. Like he will willingly put himself in harm's way, and we honor and remember his life because of what he did. Um that's that seems to me like a different situation, uh I think. Yes, or is it not?

SPEAKER_01 43:10

I mean, yes, but like how would he articulate the difference in situation?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

How would I articulate it?

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Uh he put himself in harm's way. I think I think if if I could if maybe that's too black and white, but like if um like he I I think he knowingly I I probably don't know the the Elliott story well enough, but I think he he knew the risk involved in what he was doing. And when that risk manifested, he he he he accepted the the consequences, if you will. Um but like when when someone else when I'm minding my own business and someone else seeks to do harm to my family, that's that seems to me to be a different situation, I would think.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

What about what about Peter? Like we know kind of the and you know, some people say it's not like confirmed, but we know the stories of how Peter was killed, right? Like so Jesus like was silent like a sheep going to you know it goes to the shear, you know, the Isaiah passage, the suffering servant, but Jesus was that. Jesus willingly went to the cross, Jesus could have fought back, but he didn't fight back. Um so when the disciples were ultimately arrested and then martyred, um, should they have fought back?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

So um Jesus also told them to take a sword with him. What was that sword for? True in Matthew 1135.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

But also in the Garden of Eden, or not Eden, Garden of Gethsemane, Peter hacked that guy's ear off. Jesus was like, no, no, no, this is not the way.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Yeah. And he put it back on. Um, I just I um you sound you're sounding a lot like a pacifist right now.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

I assure you I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

I know. Um but it's it playing devil's advocate is helpful. Um I just think there's a there's a difference between um like I understand the the risks or most of the risks involved in what I'm doing, and if those risks manifest, I have to accept the consequences versus like I'm minding my own business and someone of pure evil seeks to you know, intentionally pre-premeditated is is one word we use or phrase we use in our legislation today. If someone intentionally in a premeditated way seeks to do evil harm to my family, like that that is a case where I would step in, um undoubtedly. But um I suppose in the cases of like Elliot and Peter, they knew the risk to their lives that they were assuming uh when they preached the gospel in the environments in which they were preaching them.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

So w I mean even though we're in America, like there is a tendency now towards uh um towards violence against um the I mean what what it's been identified as in the public spec public sector is uh the public sphere is uh uh leftist violence against uh conservatives. And so Christians generally stand in the conservative camp because um we want to conserve God's values. Uh so if someone targets you because you're a Christian pastor, uh even in this country, and so you walk out on a Sunday morning, um, walk out to your car, and someone attacks you, nothing to do with your family, just attacks you, then what?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Um I would highly discourage that given the security team we have here.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Well that's another thing. Why we have a security team at all of our locations. Um is that the right thing? You know what I'm saying? Like is that even the right step?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yes, yeah, I I 100%. So um I think especially given our um given kind of the the legislative environment we are in, we have a which this could change one day, uh perhaps soon, but like currently we have a f uh freedom of religion, a freedom to assemble, uh freedom of speech, and so uh an attack on a pastor is not only a uh a religious attack, so to speak, but it would also be an unlawful attack. And so it's it's a double-edged sword in that sense. Um and so yes, I I I'm definitely for our our churches having security our campuses that is having security teams, and uh we're we're doing things to increase our security. We we now have a sheriff's deputy here every Sunday morning at this campus. Um because we're in Marion County and it's cheaper than the other three campuses that are in Lake County. So yeah, uh we have we get a sheriff, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Um Marion County deputies are no joke.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Yeah, that too. Um but we also you know just installed more cameras and uh we've added more uh you know qualified armed uh laymen who've who've met the qualifications and passed the background checks. And so that's actually been a focus of mine over the past few months is to increase our security here, not decrease it. Uh we haven't experienced any threats that I'm aware of, but like that's that's a high value. Um if my family's gonna come here and if we're gonna encourage other count other families to come here, it should be a safe place to come. Um your question though is not what does our security team look like. Your question is should we have one? I guess your original question though is about self-defense, but it's morphed into church security.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Um Well, that's a that's a for you that's an element of self-defense.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Right. Right. Um what would be the what would be the counter-argument? Uh churches should not have security teams or pastors should not defend themselves.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

I mean I think you've already addressed the counterarguments. It's it's the um it is the you know the extrapolation of Matthew 5 um of turning the other cheek. And and you you are absolutely correct that people misquote the Ten Commandments all the time and they say do not kill, which is inaccurate. Some people even take that do not kill. This is a whole nother topic for another time, which is gonna be like another, another time. But like um some people even like, well, we shouldn't need animals because it says do not. It's like, wow, that's you have to take that all the way to like blades of grass. Like that, but anyways, um so like I think you've already addressed the counter-arguments. I mean, a pacifist is gonna make that argument, though. A pastor is gonna make a pacifistic argument all the way. And I I right I think you're right, it's hard for us to change their mind or for them to change our mind. Um but it it would be that type of argument. I think that people would say, well, we don't need to we don't need to protect ourselves um if somebody comes in here and starts, you know, shooting in our in our worship gathering, um, it's just persecution and we're being martyred. Um whereas I would say if someone comes in here and starts shooting in our worship gathering, then we better have somebody that could take them out quick so we can save as many lives as possible. Um, would you feel the same way if you were meeting in a house church in North Korea? Would you want someone comes in there and starts assassinating Christians? Are you gonna f is is is that church going to fight back? I mean, in some cases that's gonna be the government actually coming in.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

That's what I was about to say. Is like when you say that person, it it may not be a civilian, it may be a g a government agent of some kind in in in that nation. Um Which it could take you back to uh being a Christian um in the Roman Empire. That's it's there's there's a lot of principles that are transferable there, I suppose. Um but I don't know. I'm I I don't want to I don't want to deflect by saying I'm just glad to live in this nation and not that one, but I am.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Well that is that is true. And uh we've we talked a while back about like the our goal ought to be human flourishing because humans are made in the image of God. And so it is it is our uh it ought to be our goal to preserve as much life as absolutely possible. Yes. And um and I do think sometimes that preserving um one life or multiple lives does mean taking the life of another. And I mean I remember when um when I got married, when I first got married, and my wife first moved in. Um as my you know, as my wife, she moved into the house, the condo, I owned a condo at the time, and I laid awake two nights in a row. I laid awake trying to figure out what I'm gonna do if someone breaks into my house.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

I owned this house for a year and a half already. I had already lived there. I lived there with a roommate, and you know what I had not thought about? What I was gonna do if someone breaks in in the middle of the night. Can I roll over? Yeah, exactly. It would be run away. Like, you know, try and get out the window or whatever. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Um run away, and you can you can have my TV, you can have my microwave, whatever. But my wife and kids are in the house, I'm not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Right, exactly. Yes, and so now that now the thing that I you know uh the thing that I think about is like well, now I have older kids, so like how am I gonna know if one of them opened the door and set the alarm off or if the alarm is going off because someone's breaking into my house? So, like, how do I account for all my kids so I know that uh whether or not I'm gonna shoot whoever's coming up the stairs or not? You know, like um so it it's it's it is different when you're talking about defending someone else versus defending myself. And and I think you know, even as a Christian husband, it's in my family's best interest for me to be alive. Now, God could have a different plan, you know, if God takes me home, God takes me home, come quickly, Lord Jesus. But um, but it's in my family's best interest for me to be there with them and to continue the work that my wife and I are doing of trying to raise our kids to know and to love Jesus. And so even protecting my own life is a matter of protecting my family.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

In an indirect way, right? I like that argument a lot.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

So um, so I think that in this country we have the best opportunity. Again, the best in all of human history, we have the best opportunity for human flourishing. Yes. And so we have got to do everything we possibly can to prevent efforts from keeping us from flourishing and keeping um keeping the church from growing and expanding. Because you know, if you if it becomes a regular thing that people are walking into church services and killing everybody, are we gonna be able to get people to come into church services? Are we gonna be able to reach people with the gospel? And so having a security team that that makes it possible, um, you know, I think all the time about the um the the pulse shooting, as terrible as that was, that's in our backyard here in Central Florida. Um, that wasn't that shooter's original target, that was just the softer target. And he already went somewhere else, but there was enough security presence that it to deterred him from that place. And so I think that if you and that's not to say like we should deter people from here so they go somewhere else. My goal, my hope would be that we deter people from here so that they go away. Um, but and don't go somewhere else and take life somewhere else. But I think that we've got to do everything we possibly can to protect God's God's people and to be able to protect the opportunity for humans to flourish, humans who are created in the image of God, who should not be gunned down in the streets or in the pews just for the sake of being gunned down. Yes. Or st or stabbed or whatever it may be. So I I think that it all comes down to um to just protecting image bearers. Yes. That even though that bad guy is also an image bearer, um, the choices that they're making is um it's almost like throwing their value away, you know. Yeah, uh yeah.

unknown 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Which is why I also support the death penalty, but that's a whole different I do too. Whole different argument.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

We could talk about that sometime. Um it's connected, but you're right, a whole different conversation. A connected one, but different. Um But yeah, I think I think I I'm I'm pretty settled. Um I'm pretty settled on my position on that one. I think I think we're in alignment for the most part, but um I struggle with the I think my I I enjoy having conversations with people um with whom I disagree. I I always bothered the the last time I had this conversation with a pacifist, and they were like, well, if you're walking closely with Jesus, you'll know what to do. I'm like, you're basically telling me because I'm going to defend my family when they're in harm. That I'm not walking closely with Jesus. Are you crazy? Yeah. Um so like when you have conversations with people and you disagree on a topic, at least be respectful. Um so it's that's been a couple years, but uh it still sticks with me.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yeah. I mean you'd have to extrapolate that all the way to like if I got drafted, you know, it's it's the uh um Hacksaw Ridge. Yeah, you know, it yeah, it which that are you know, the uh that pacifist argument, you know, is made so infrequently. Are you trying to say there's so few people that are walking with Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

I just don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Agreed. Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

I was gonna tell my I might when thinking about this, my favorite one of my favorite uh movie kind of lines is in The Patriot. Um that's a great, great movie. But when they're going around and trying to gather everybody up from the uh from the various places um to you know call them to action, and the the preacher goes, you know, he's he's walking across, like people don't really suspect that he's gonna be leaving, and they're he they're like, Pastor or Reverend or whatever they call him, the you're going too. And he goes, uh yeah. Uh it's kind of like he's caught, you know. But he's like, sometimes the shepherd has to protect the sheep.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

It's like, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

I don't know if I quoted that quite right, but it's that idea. Like it's one of my favorite scenes.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

I know that's a movie quote, but I mean, it's quite a biblical concept.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

And and as a that might be the best uh that might be the that might be the best connection to the church security team. Like sometimes the shepherd has to protect the sheep. Um I don't know that I can quote the patriot on on that, but uh you know the the shepherd is a biblical image. Who's a guy portraying a pastor? Yeah. So I mean uh last topic is um uh in in a way connected. Um we talked about legislation uh last week, and so the question is um uh the probably the the age old question is should we legislate morality? But I I guess um in the context of this episode, like how how should Christians think about uh national or state or local legislation? What should they be supporting? What should they be opposing? Um what what's the framework for thinking about uh governmental legislation as a Christian?

SPEAKER_01 57:40

So the to it's a good question, but the but the ultimate um the ultimate phrase, you know, the ultimate belief that you can't legislate morality is actually stupid.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Because all legislation is more is legislating morality. I mean, it just depends on which morality. So like if I'm let if I'm saying thou shalt, you know, we're gonna we're gonna there's gonna be a punishment for murder, that's morality. Like we're saying you shouldn't murder people, or if there's a penalty for tax evasion, you shouldn't evade your taxes, like you shouldn't lie, you know, you shouldn't perjure yourself. Like that's morality, that's all morality. So it's kind of silly to say that you can't legislate morality because that's all that you're ever legislating. You're saying this thing is right, and because this thing is right, we're gonna make a law out of it, and so thereby we are legislating morality. Um the question then becomes which morality are we going to legislate?

SPEAKER_00 58:43

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

And so I think as a Christian, again, this again, it just goes back to human flourishing. What is the best legislation for human flourishing? Well, what is the best plan for what is the best morality? What is the ultimate morality? The ultimate morality is God's morality. So the ultimate best thing for people is to follow God's plan. So to say that we can't legislate things that are biblical ideas is foolish because that's exactly what we should be legislating because that's what's best for people. Now, sometimes there's things that are legislative, you know, there's so many laws on the books, there's so many things that are out there, and so there's you know, there's things that the Bible does not directly address, and so like you know, who knows, like one way or the other. I think that that's why it's so important that we have the Constitution, and so our laws should reflect the principles that are embedded in the Constitution. Um, and that's what we should be conserving, and that's why I think trying to move away from that document in any way is so foolish because it has created the best system of human flourishing in the history of the world. Um and and also like John Adams wrote, like it's entirely built on the principles of scripture. So, like, you know, so there's people out there like, oh, we're not a Christian. Like, come on. Like, I'm not I'm not saying that we should, as you know, like legislate something like we should all go to church on Sunday morning or whatever. Like no, but like why not? Well, that's to see that some point you do have to draw a line. Like, we we do need to allow for religious freedom. Um, but I think when it comes to uh comes to certain things that are just flat out bad for people, that legislating against those things is not a problem. Um things like polygamy, like that's something that is bad for people, so we should legislate against that. Uh things like drugs and alcohol, like you know, I I I don't mean like complete, like um what's it called?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Uh uh You want to be a libertarian?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

No, I don't want to be a libertarian.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Because libertarians say just let everybody let live and let live. Correct. I don't think so. Because like then then where do you draw the line? You know, what laws do we just not not have then? Uh I I am in huge favor of of smaller governments and whatnot, but like but live and let live. I don't I just don't think we can do that. Like because you're saying like what you do behind closed doors or what you choose to do in your personal life doesn't affect me, and that's just not true. Like what other people choose to do in life does affect the rest of us. And so if we erode the values of a culture, um, or if we say that our culture has no values, everybody gets to just have their own values, we are eroding our culture. And so there has to be some values that we uphold, and I think they really should be some of the some of the um some of the beginning the beginning roles. And now and people always look back and say, oh well, um it well the the people that found the Constitution, they they still kept their slaves or whatever. And you know, and in reality, like Thomas Jefferson did try and he did actually try and like write slavery out of it and whatnot, but that got voted down or whatever. I mean, but the system was set up so that abolition could come. Um because they most of them knew it was wrong, most of them knew it was bad. Um I think the system is set up too to purge out some of the other um to s to purge out some of the other um ills of society at the time. Um but we have used it to create new ills, like that that actually detract from human um human flourishing. Um and that's that's that's wildly power problematic. That's I mean to say like, okay, well you you know you want to be you want to be homosexual and you want to have a homosexual lover or whatever, as long as you do it behind closed doors, it doesn't affect the rest of us. Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

It does, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

Because homosexuality does not lead to human flourishing, it takes away from human flourishing because it's that's um because it's against God's design. And so we need to be doing things that are in keeping with God's design to be that's gonna be best for the whole family. The best the best thing for society is for um young people to get married and to have children. That is the best thing for society, and so anything that's not that is working against that, and that is bad for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

So um theonomy, or would you have a would you have a tweetable definition of theonomy? And no. Okay. Um Do you? Basically, like um not really, but I I am I am interested in the idea uh and there have been books written on it, but um if if God created the universe, which he did, um and God has given us laws, which he did, why don't we just use those laws for our nations? Basically.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

I mean obviously that would ultimately be be best.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Then should we advocate and fight not fight, but advocate toward that end?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Um I honestly think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

I don't I mean, I I don't think that and you can't read the read the Bible and see every single law that should be on the books. You know, and then some of the laws that are in the Old Testament were meant to be part of the sacrificial system, they're ceremonial laws, they're not even meant to, they're not moral laws, they're ceremonial. And so those laws are not laws that we necessarily need in um on the books, but like because you you have to go all the way down to like the local laws like of code enforcement, like how high can your grass get? Like there are laws about that in a lot of places. Um I think that's kind of silly. I think there should be more like your neighbors should just be like, hey man, can you please cut your grass?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

But I my grass is 2.6 inches tall.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Yeah, I mean so I have a robot that cuts it. Well, there you go. Now you know. Um I have a child that cuts mine and he loves it. Um got him a zero turn and he's never looked back. But um, but uh I don't know. I I that's what I'm saying. I mean, there's gonna be more laws than what we have in scripture. I just think that the laws should be in keeping with scripture. Um and I don't think that we should so like I think there's a difference between like enforcing things that are best for human flourishing and enforcing things that um cause someone to have to um choose a particular religion that gets forced upon them, you know what I'm saying? Um I do think we have to have freedom of religion, but I do think the freedom of religion that our founding fathers intended was not truly freedom of religion. I think it was freedom of denomination. I don't think that I don't think that they were saying, yeah, uh bring all the world religions here and let them all coexist, like that bumper sticker, which is one of the dumbest bumper stickers in the like because half those religions on that in that you know they're represented in that that bumper sticker would would never want to coexist. Would never coexist, and one of them would actually want to kill the rest of them or subjugate them. So um, and not and that's not Christianity, by the way. Um, but the uh I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind. I think what they had in mind was more like we're not gonna the there's not gonna be a state sponsored denomination, but there's very clearly in our founding documents. A state-sponsored belief in God. And so people are like, oh well they are all deists or whatever. Like, yeah, they believed in God. Like, were they would would they have well did they have a robust, correct orthodox theology? No. But they knew that God was a creator of all that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

So here's another way of perhaps asking the theonymy question, like the theotomy in in some sense being God created all this, God has given us laws, why not just use God's laws? I've also heard it put I tried to avoid using the phrase Christian nationalism so far because that's a whole it's unhelpful, yeah. Yeah. Anyways, but I've heard some say like we shouldn't fight for a Christian nation. We should fight for a free nation. But what if a Christian nation in an idealistic sense is the freest of all the nations? Well, a hundred I mean a hundred percent it is. So then why not fight for a Christian nation?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

I think we should fight for a free nation that is based in Christian principles.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

So so like if you want to come here and be, you know, Muslim or whatever, you can, but you gotta understand that everything is not gonna be built on on um Islam which is just one dude in a cave. Um but it's but it's built on Christian principles from Scripture. As long as you can understand that, fine. You want to be Muslim, be Muslim, but we want you to know Jesus. Um the real Jesus. Um but uh I d but you're saying like why not just you know to go back to what you said earlier, why then we would legislate like everybody goes to Sunday school and everybody goes to church? Um I I don't know. Because I think I think there has to be freedom. But I but again I think it's freedom of denomination, again, not freedom of religion. I don't think that's what they intended. I don't think they intended for this to be anything but a Christian nation. Um not that everybody was gonna be Christian, and that's obvious because they weren't, but that it was going to be um based on Christian principles and operated that way. And it that's what it came. It's very obviously that's what it came from. I mean, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, like from who?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

From by our creator.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

I mean, come on, like obviously they were establishing this as a um as a country built on the principles that God had passed down, and I think that that's exactly what we should do. But I don't think we should establish a state church.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

Why not?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

I think I mean that well the well that's the funny thing about the f the separation of church and state thing um is a lot of that language just comes from letters between people, it doesn't actually come from our constitution. Um but what they were trying to avoid was the church having political power like it did in England with the Church of England. Um and they s because they saw how much of a failed system that was over centuries um from Rome on down. And so that's what that's what the founding fathers were fighting against. Um and I don't think I don't think that Jesus, I think it's very obvious that Jesus did not come to establish his kingdom here. And and that's what a lot of people are you know trying, there's there's those various things where we think that the world's gonna get better and better and better because God's gonna establish his kingdom here. Whereas what we recognize from actually reading the Bible and reading the the the letters of the old the new testament is the world's getting worse and worse and worse, and it's gonna continue to get worse and worse until Jesus comes back. And I mean that's what it sounded like when Jesus talked, that's the way it sounded like when the when the uh the epistle writers wrote, that's what it sounds like in the book of Revelation. Things are not gonna get better, things are gonna get worse. I don't think Jesus came to establish his kingdom here, he would have done it. I do think that Jesus is gonna come back to establish his kingdom and uh in the new heavens and a new earth, but when Jesus wrote into um when Jesus wrote in on that donkey uh a week before they crucified him, or less than a week before they crucified him, um he was they were they were celebrating him and crying out Hosanna, Hosanna because um because they thought this was gonna be a military takeover where God where the Messiah was gonna come down and establish his kingdom, establish his reign, get the Roman people out. That's obviously not what Jesus did. So the same people a week later, like, well, this guy's not doing what we think he's gonna do, crucify, crucify. So they go from Hosanna, Hosanna to crucify, crucify, like immediately. And I always wondered, like, how do they make that switch so fast? It's because they were had some unmet expectations of what they thought Jesus was gonna do. Yeah, and so Jesus did not come to establish his kingdom here, Jesus' kingdom is in heaven, and we are participants in that kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, and so we can try and make things as good as we possibly can here, but ultimately things are gonna continue to get worse and worse because this place belongs to the devil, and um the the powers of the prince of the air who's going around seeking whom he may destroy, like to put a couple passages together.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

Perhaps the uh the end times might need to be a teaser for some some other time, but I mean uh but for now, a couple questions though. Are there more Christians today than there were a thousand or two thousand years ago? I would say so.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Well, there's I mean by proportion or by number. Both. I mean by number for sure. By proportion I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

I mean there's over a billion the people who claim Christ, um out of nine billion. I mean that's proportionately probably more. Are there more churches than there were thousands of years ago? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

I think yeah, I think that one would be both um number and proportion, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

So how are things getting worse for Christians?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

I mean, there's still places in this in this world where Christians are still killed for their faith. Um even in this country, depending on who's in charge, we're still persecuted for our faith.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

But if the trajectory is uh downward and not upward, then why engage in missions?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

I mean Oh, you're saying to just make it worse? Or to allow it to become worse?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

No, I'm saying like if um like if if there's a missionary um like if there's a missionary who's been in uh I won't specify any place, but there's if there's a missionary who's been in a place for a decade and has seen zero converts and their eschatology is that things are getting worse, not better, why would they stay?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

Yeah. That's a good question. Um because I don't know, I just but I just don't know how I just don't see the reading of scripture in a things are getting better.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

Way I think we actually this this is why this might be fun one day, because I actually do. I think I think things are getting better. I I would uh uh I'll go ahead and just say like I would land in the in the post-millennial camp. Like I think things are getting better um personally. So we'll tease that one for sure. This has been a long episode though. Yeah, I think it has. Trying to keep it to like a car drive and a half for people in a couple of years. We did not do a good job today. May have gone long, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

So give us give us your hot take. Those are some those are some big topics though. Um my hot take is that uh Mexican food is objectively the best kind of food. Wow. I mean, there's there's there's good things within other genres of food, but none of them are as collectively as good as Mexican food.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Okay. Uh I also have a food hot take. Um, mint chocolate chip ice cream is gross. Oh. It's just frozen toothpaste. So that's my hot take.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

Well, that is a pretty hot take.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

I like to have mint chocolate chip ice cream after I have my Mexican food.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:38

So you don't even need to brush your teeth that night. Oh cross.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

Well, this has been then the Practical Matters podcast where Make It Theology Practical Matters. Um, I'm Kevin Saxton.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

This is Garrett Haywood.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

We'll see you the next time. See you. Goodbye.